The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[JesseWZ]

CCW was more common here, without a wild west happening. There are quite a few people , myself included that would like to see a return to historical levels or higher. CCW permit carriers in the US have a incredibly low indictment rate, they are not the problem. For a civilian CCW, the use of deadly force is much more cut and dried, then for a police officer who has several levels of lethal and non-lethal force to use and a much wider level of variables to consider.

My comments (and criticisms) are more directed towards the idea that every able bodied soldier, sailor or air-person could be an ideal candidate for a CCW. The sheer number of lost weapons, magazines and ammunition files that came through the Esquimalt guardhouse when I worked there was argument enough that many in the military are not aptly suited to take care of and/or keep custody of a weapon. Sometimes I had a hard time believing we weren't tripping over old weapon parts in the training area with every step. (I jest, but only slightly...)

Honest unbaited question - In your ideal CCW world, would we relax magazine restrictions for CCW permit carriers so that they could have more than 5 rounds?

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=JesseWZ] would we relax magazine restrictions for CCW permit carriers so that they could have more than 5 rounds?
[/quote]

Handguns are limited to 10 rounds and semi-auto rifles 5.

Most people can pop the rivet out of a pinned magazine in a few seconds.

 

[JesseWZ]

Handguns are limited to 10 rounds and semi-auto rifles 5.

Whoops... brain fart.

You're answer is not really what I meant by the question - I know people *can* unpin their magazines easily. People *can* do lots of things. I'm wondering if those who support a more robust CCW program would argue for more relaxed rules in general for the portion of the population granted CCW status.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Quite frankly, since most of the hand guns I know have a maximum capacity  of 13 to 15 rounds for their magazines, I don't believe that the "10" rounds restriction is a biggie when compared to the restriction on mags for the semis.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Whoops... brain fart.

You're answer is not really what I meant by the question - I know people *can* unpin their magazines easily. People *can* do lots of things. I'm wondering if those who support a more robust CCW program would argue for more relaxed rules in general for the portion of the population granted CCW status.

Happens  ;D
Asking about mag limits and ccw seemed like a bit of a red herring and I was wondering where you were going with it. Carrying a handgun for self defense and limiting how much ammo is in the mag seems self-defeating, know what I mean?

 

[Eaglelord17]

Honestly for self defence you can't beat a revolver. If it is in good shape basically no stoppages, and anything that is a stoppage is solved by pulling the trigger again vs. a semi where you can have all sorts of out of ammo related stoppages, people grabbing your pistol and putting it out of battery, safeties to fumble with (as opposed to a DA trigger pull for a revolver). Many of the serious self defence classes in the US show just how much more difficult it can be to use a pistol for self defence over a revolver as most these situations happen within 5m or less where there can be a chance to try and grab your gun. 5 or 6rds is sufficient for pretty much all self defence requirements, anything requiring more than that you really should have something more serious such as a rifle or shotgun.

Shooting skill for concealed carry is pretty much not important. Some of the worst trained pistol shooters I have ever seen are the police and they carry pistols on a regular basis. What is important is knowing where and when you are legally able to use your carry firearm. That is the part which matters, and for those arguing about civilian casualties how is it that the police and all these civilian concealed carry permit holders in the States seem to avoid them despite in many States the bar for being both is pretty low?

 

[mariomike]

Honestly for self defence you can't beat a revolver.

"I like to know the XXXXX is going to work." 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI33vW90yqg

Warning: Offensive language.

 

[YZT580]

I'd be quite happy if started holding the illegal gun dealers much more accountable.

If an illegal gun you sold was used in a murder = Automatic 10 years.

And before the naysayers jump in and start complaining about "What about the UHaul dealers?", it's apples and oranges.

One is renting a legal good which has many legal uses.  The other is selling an illegal item which only has illegal applications.

aUTOMATIC penalties don't work in Canada.  They have been deemed unconstitutional by the supremes in most cases.  Although you might get away with it when it comes to firearms.

 

[Sig_Des]

aUTOMATIC penalties don't work in Canada.  They have been deemed unconstitutional by the supremes in most cases.  Although you might get away with it when it comes to firearms.

Not necessarily automatic sentences, however supplementary charges in my opinion are warranted. IE, Criminal Code 351(2):

Every one who, with intent to commit an indictable offence, has his face masked or coloured or is otherwise disguised is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years.

.

I don't like group punishment, along the lines of "criminals are wearing body armour, so legislate and regulate body armour". But targeting criminals who commit these particular offences makes sense to me.

Used body armour in the commission of an indictable offence? Additional charge.
Used a firearm in the commission of an indictable offence? Additional charge.

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

that the Trudeau government is prepared to consider a proposal to ban handguns.

When are we going to ban drinking and driving so no more drinking and driving related deaths occur? Oh wait... :facepalm:

 

[Retired AF Guy]

When are we going to ban drinking and driving so no more drinking and driving related deaths occur? Oh wait... :facepalm:

Maybe before the politicians start talking about banning handguns, they should determine how someone with a history of mental illness and thus unable to legally buy a firearm, let alone a handgun, was able to obtain one.

Also, if more money was spent on treating people with mental illness, its possible we wouldn't have people going on shooting rampages.

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

"The vote comes at a time when gun violence has been overwhelming in Toronto with numerous incidents being reported this year. There were 39 people who fell victim to gun violence in Toronto during the month of July alone. "

www.narcity.com/news/toronto-city-council-just-voted-to-ban-the-sale-of-handguns-and-am

 

[ModlrMike]

Following recent events in Toronto, it appears the CBC is doing a full court press on the gun control issue.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/toronto-shooting-goodale-guns-1.4759484
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/guns-domestic-danforth-shooting-toronto-1.4759159
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-gun-bill-gang-crime-1.4733374

Joined it seems, by the Globe and Mail.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-feds-prepared-to-consider-proposal-to-ban-handguns-goodale-says/
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/article-globe-editorial-rethinking-canadas-outdated-gun-control-laws/
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-all-the-other-answers-come-after-fewer-guns/



Edit to add G&M piece and links.

 

[Furniture]

It's easier to scapegoat law abiding citizens than it is to deal with an issue like gangs, particularly when the gang issue is mixed up in race and class issues as well.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'd really like to meet Ralph Goodale in person and pick his brain.

2.1 million or 5.6% of Canadians own 10-20 million guns.

I don't think the liberals fart without paying a lot of money to advisors and spin doctors to calculate how it will effect voting, polls and such. 

Ralph and friends are going to have to try pretty hard to spin a gun ban on legally owned guns based on an asshole using an illegal gun to shoot people. 

Elections coming up, go hard and use the shooting to enamor anti-gun types or kick the can down the road as to not piss off the voters on the fence.

4500 firearm and ammo businesses and 1000 restricted handguns and rifles are bought ever week, or a restricted firearm bought every 6 hours. And that doesn't include all the restricted guns that are privately sold every day. Little political minefield for Justin to dance in.

 

[Remius]

I'd really like to meet Ralph Goodale in person and pick his brain.

2.1 million or 5.6% of Canadians own 10-20 million guns.

I don't think the liberals fart without paying a lot of money to advisors and spin doctors to calculate how it will effect voting, polls and such. 

Ralph and friends are going to have to try pretty hard to spin a gun ban on legally owned guns based on an ******* using an illegal gun to shoot people. 

Elections coming up, go hard and use the shooting to enamor anti-gun types or kick the can down the road as to not piss off the voters on the fence.

4500 firearm and ammo businesses and 1000 restricted handguns and rifles are bought ever week, or a restricted firearm bought every 6 hours. And that doesn't include all the restricted guns that are privately sold every day. Little political minefield for Justin to dance in.

Toronto is a vote rich area.  Torontonians want to see something done.  Easy win for the liberals to just ban handguns and claim they did something.  Most handgun advocates don't vote liberal for the most part so its hardly a mine field. 

 

[RocketRichard]

There are many switched on folks (including you Jarnhamar)  in this forum.  Many gun owners (myself included) here.  Still waiting for a coherent argument as to why a private citizen would need or should own a handgun...  Thanks all for the debate.

I'd really like to meet Ralph Goodale in person and pick his brain.

2.1 million or 5.6% of Canadians own 10-20 million guns.

I don't think the liberals fart without paying a lot of money to advisors and spin doctors to calculate how it will effect voting, polls and such. 

Ralph and friends are going to have to try pretty hard to spin a gun ban on legally owned guns based on an ******* using an illegal gun to shoot people. 

Elections coming up, go hard and use the shooting to enamor anti-gun types or kick the can down the road as to not piss off the voters on the fence.

4500 firearm and ammo businesses and 1000 restricted handguns and rifles are bought ever week, or a restricted firearm bought every 6 hours. And that doesn't include all the restricted guns that are privately sold every day. Little political minefield for Justin to dance in.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

There are many switched on folks (including you Jarnhamar)  in this forum.  Many gun owners (myself included) here.  Still waiting for a coherent argument as to why a private citizen would need or should own a handgun...  Thanks all for the debate.

We've had this discussion. Go check the old thread.

 

[Halifax Tar]

There are many switched on folks (including you Jarnhamar)  in this forum.  Many gun owners (myself included) here.  Still waiting for a coherent argument as to why a private citizen would need or should own a handgun...  Thanks all for the debate.

Need is rarely an approved reason to gain the privilege of private firearms ownership in Canada.  Very few concealed carry permits are issued and one must have very well defined, apparent and documented reasons.  For the most part its purely a recreational want.

This is the crux of firearms ownership in Canada.  We have no legislated right to own firearms if we wish.  So "need" or "should" cant really enter the discussion no matter how much we wish they could.

The vast majority of handgun owners are sports shooter or target shooters.  And sadly these privately handgun owners can be made criminals with a pen and a couple of votes, and thousands of dollars invested will be for not.

And it will not stop at handguns, this will continue on until we are down to levers, bolts and slides.

Unfortunately we law abiding firearms are forced to pay the consequences for criminals like this fellow in Toronto.

 

[Remius]

There are many switched on folks (including you Jarnhamar)  in this forum.  Many gun owners (myself included) here.  Still waiting for a coherent argument as to why a private citizen would need or should own a handgun...  Thanks all for the debate.

There is a whole slew of reasons.

Some like to compete.  Some like to hone their skills on their own (most handgun owners I know are military, ex military or LEO). Some want something cool to do that isn't knitting or bowling.

One could ask why anyone needs to learn a martial art.  Plenty of reasons there too and no less valid.