The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[RocketRichard]

Thanks for your points HT and Remius.


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[Colin Parkinson]

Yes, just a few months ago the Liberals were saying "We aren't going after anyone guns"....

which is why no experienced gun owner trusts the Liberals.

 

[RocketRichard]

Yes, just a few months ago the Liberals were saying "We aren't going after anyone guns"....

which is why no experienced gun owner trusts the Liberals.

Incorrect.  I know many experienced gun owners who trust the Liberals AND the Conservatives. Depends on whether they lie or not...

 

[Jarnhamar]

There are many switched on folks (including you Jarnhamar)  in this forum.  Many gun owners (myself included) here.  Still waiting for a coherent argument as to why a private citizen would need or should own a handgun...  Thanks all for the debate.

I think that's a fair question to ask RocketRichard. I'll try not to be soap-boxy (but I'll fail!) 

It's hard to quantify a need because really it's a want and at the end of the day I think something like this boils down to what the public majority wants, what the politicians think will get them the most votes and money. It's not about saving lives, other wise we wouldn't sell cigarettes or alcohol.

I find smoking insane. People poison their own bodies, put a drain on health care and poison non-smokers with second hand smoke. How on earth do we still sell that poison? Enough people still want it and money in the business.

Alcohol? How many injuries and deaths are caused by alcohol being a factor. Domestic abuse, assaults, sexual assault. It's a substance we put in our body and just a little too much leads to people being hurt or worse. (How many of us have driven home from the mess when we probably shouldn't have?).
But the lives having no alcohol available would save isn't a big enough trade off for the monetary value alcohol brings in/jobs it creates and just how many people want it.

If we're pretending the argument is we need to ban handguns to save lives then sure saving lives is important but there's a number of areas ahead of handguns that cause more deaths so as far as I'm concerned start there.


We could (should) triple the capability of our borders. I've been trained on a pretty awesome XRay machine that could pick up weapons being carried by people inside of vehicles as they drove through the portal. You could see different metal (and liquid) densities. Let's set those up at the borders, scan everyone and everything. Instead of giving India 750 million dollars put that towards our own borders. We're such a materialistic society. I think I read CBSA only searched 3% of incoming cargo ships? That's crazy. Lets give them more money and better tools. They won't just catch guns but illegal alcohol, drugs AND humans too (whether they're illegal immigrants or especially sex trade slaves)

Domestically sourced guns? Get rid of the revolving door system we have. Double or triple the punishment for thieves and gun sellers. Families and communities can know it off with the "he's a good boy" bullshit and stop making excuses for people.




I hate bringing up Uhaul trucks, and no disrespect intended to the families of the deceased, but Faisal Hussain killed 2 people and injured 13 with a handgun. That's alot. Alek Minassian killed 10 people and injured 13 with a van attack, that's alot more.

A $400 handgun costs over $2000 on the blackmarket (ammo is very expensive too). Blackmarket isn't like a Walmart and that easy to access. From what I understand of the 2006 Toronto 18 planned terrorist attack the members tried but failed to source illegal guns on the black market.
26 foot UHaul truck is $39.95 to rent and you don't require a special license (minus Quebec).

No, we can't ban trucks but maybe looking at what we can ban is less effective than looking at how we can forecast and intervene before these attacks happen. 



Why should I be allowed handguns? Stop worrying about me and go after people who are "known to police", access violent radical websites, associate with criminals and terrorist groups or are simply criminals themselves. (Generally speaking, I know you're not targeting me personally RR).

 

[Jed]

I think that's a fair question to ask RocketRichard. I'll try not to be soap-boxy (but I'll fail!) 

It's hard to quantify a need because really it's a want and at the end of the day I think something like this boils down to what the public majority wants, what the politicians think will get them the most votes and money. It's not about saving lives, other wise we wouldn't sell cigarettes or alcohol.

I find smoking insane. People poison their own bodies, put a drain on health care and poison non-smokers with second hand smoke. How on earth do we still sell that poison? Enough people still want it and money in the business.

Alcohol? How many injuries and deaths are caused by alcohol being a factor. Domestic abuse, assaults, sexual assault. It's a substance we put in our body and just a little too much leads to people being hurt or worse. (How many of us have driven home from the mess when we probably shouldn't have?).
But the lives having no alcohol available would save isn't a big enough trade off for the monetary value alcohol brings in/jobs it creates and just how many people want it.

If we're pretending the argument is we need to ban handguns to save lives then sure saving lives is important but there's a number of areas ahead of handguns that cause more deaths so as far as I'm concerned start there.


We could (should) triple the capability of our borders. I've been trained on a pretty awesome XRay machine that could pick up weapons being carried by people inside of vehicles as they drove through the portal. You could see different metal (and liquid) densities. Let's set those up at the borders, scan everyone and everything. Instead of giving India 750 million dollars put that towards our own borders. We're such a materialistic society. I think I read CBSA only searched 3% of incoming cargo ships? That's crazy. Lets give them more money and better tools. They won't just catch guns but illegal alcohol, drugs AND humans too (whether they're illegal immigrants or especially sex trade slaves)

Domestically sourced guns? Get rid of the revolving door system we have. Double or triple the punishment for thieves and gun sellers. Families and communities can know it off with the "he's a good boy" bullshit and stop making excuses for people.




I hate bringing up Uhaul trucks, and no disrespect intended to the families of the deceased, but Faisal Hussain killed 2 people and injured 13 with a handgun. That's alot. Alek Minassian killed 10 people and injured 13 with a van attack, that's alot more.

A $400 handgun costs over $2000 on the blackmarket (ammo is very expensive too). Blackmarket isn't like a Walmart and that easy to access. From what I understand of the 2006 Toronto 18 planned terrorist attack the members tried but failed to source illegal guns on the black market.
26 foot UHaul truck is $39.95 to rent and you don't require a special license (minus Quebec).

No, we can't ban trucks but maybe looking at what we can ban is less effective than looking at how we can forecast and intervene before these attacks happen. 



Why should I be allowed handguns? Stop worrying about me and go after people who are "known to police", access violent radical websites, associate with criminals and terrorist groups or are simply criminals themselves. (Generally speaking, I know you're not targeting me personally RR).

Great reply, worthy of posting to papers in the an editorial. As if that would even happen given the Mainstream Media’s bias on the storyline.

 

[RocketRichard]

I think that's a fair question to ask RocketRichard. I'll try not to be soap-boxy (but I'll fail!) 

It's hard to quantify a need because really it's a want and at the end of the day I think something like this boils down to what the public majority wants, what the politicians think will get them the most votes and money. It's not about saving lives, other wise we wouldn't sell cigarettes or alcohol.

I find smoking insane. People poison their own bodies, put a drain on health care and poison non-smokers with second hand smoke. How on earth do we still sell that poison? Enough people still want it and money in the business.

Alcohol? How many injuries and deaths are caused by alcohol being a factor. Domestic abuse, assaults, sexual assault. It's a substance we put in our body and just a little too much leads to people being hurt or worse. (How many of us have driven home from the mess when we probably shouldn't have?).
But the lives having no alcohol available would save isn't a big enough trade off for the monetary value alcohol brings in/jobs it creates and just how many people want it.

If we're pretending the argument is we need to ban handguns to save lives then sure saving lives is important but there's a number of areas ahead of handguns that cause more deaths so as far as I'm concerned start there.


We could (should) triple the capability of our borders. I've been trained on a pretty awesome XRay machine that could pick up weapons being carried by people inside of vehicles as they drove through the portal. You could see different metal (and liquid) densities. Let's set those up at the borders, scan everyone and everything. Instead of giving India 750 million dollars put that towards our own borders. We're such a materialistic society. I think I read CBSA only searched 3% of incoming cargo ships? That's crazy. Lets give them more money and better tools. They won't just catch guns but illegal alcohol, drugs AND humans too (whether they're illegal immigrants or especially sex trade slaves)

Domestically sourced guns? Get rid of the revolving door system we have. Double or triple the punishment for thieves and gun sellers. Families and communities can know it off with the "he's a good boy" bullshit and stop making excuses for people.




I hate bringing up Uhaul trucks, and no disrespect intended to the families of the deceased, but Faisal Hussain killed 2 people and injured 13 with a handgun. That's alot. Alek Minassian killed 10 people and injured 13 with a van attack, that's alot more.

A $400 handgun costs over $2000 on the blackmarket (ammo is very expensive too). Blackmarket isn't like a Walmart and that easy to access. From what I understand of the 2006 Toronto 18 planned terrorist attack the members tried but failed to source illegal guns on the black market.
26 foot UHaul truck is $39.95 to rent and you don't require a special license (minus Quebec).

No, we can't ban trucks but maybe looking at what we can ban is less effective than looking at how we can forecast and intervene before these attacks happen. 



Why should I be allowed handguns? Stop worrying about me and go after people who are "known to police", access violent radical websites, associate with criminals and terrorist groups or are simply criminals themselves. (Generally speaking, I know you're not targeting me personally RR).

Whoa. That was more of a response than expected. Really appreciate it J. You almost have me convinced I will use your points when I get into a debate with my friends that are very ‘left wing’. Maybe I will even buy a hand gun, nah, too much of a PIA. Have a great day.


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[Colin Parkinson]

Wasn't just a few months ago we were told the Liberals aren't coming for your guns.......

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Then they are fools who don't bother studying history. The Liberals are always one crisis away from banning firearms, generally by taking a few slices at a time.

 

[RocketRichard]

Then they are fools who don't bother studying history. The Liberals are always one crisis away from banning firearms, generally by taking a few slices at a time.

Thank you for contributing to the discussion with your blanket statements about gun owners and their political leanings and that those who trust Liberals and conservatives are fools.


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[Furniture]

Wasn't just a few months ago we were told the Liberals aren't coming for your guns.......

They don't want all of your guns, just the "scary" ones... they'll come back for the rest later.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Non-restricted
Restricted
Prohibited


Ubless you're in Oshawa Ontario then they're all illegal  ;D

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Thank you for contributing to the discussion with your blanket statements about gun owners and their political leanings and that those who trust Liberals and conservatives are fools.


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I am 12(5) so I am all to painfully aware of Liberals and their "gifts". My comment is directed to gun owners who naively think the Liberals won't come after them, because they don't own scary guns.

 

[PuckChaser]

CTV is now reporting the gun used was illegal to start with, and smuggled from the US.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/toronto-shooter-s-gun-was-illegal-originally-from-u-s-source-1.4027129

The gun used to shoot 15 people on a busy Toronto street was likely obtained from a “gang-related source,” according to a person familiar with the case.

CP24 safety specialist Cam Woolley says a police source has told him the semi-automatic handgun used in the shooting is illegal in Canada and was originally from the United States. American authorities are helping track the gun’s exact origin.

Hussain opened fire on Danforth Avenue in Toronto Sunday night, killing two people and wounding 13 others.

CTV News has further learned that ammunition and large-capacity magazines were found by police officers searching the apartment Faisal Hussain shared with his parents. Police are also looking into the connection between Hussain’s brother, who is currently in a coma, and a 2017 seizure of more than 30 guns in Pickering, Ont.

So how many laws were broken here? Prohibited weapon, prohibited device, carried concealed, murder, attempted murder, weapons trafficking... a handgun ban stops none of them.

 

[my72jeep]

CTV is now reporting the gun used was illegal to start with, and smuggled from the US.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/toronto-shooter-s-gun-was-illegal-originally-from-u-s-source-1.4027129

So how many laws were broken here? Prohibited weapon, prohibited device, carried concealed, murder, attempted murder, weapons trafficking... a handgun ban stops none of them.

But now your making sense, stop that it’s anti Canadian

 

[Jarnhamar]

Mentally ill :

He was using illegal hi capacity magazines. I think we should lower the magazine limit from 10 to 5 just to be safer.

 

[ModlrMike]

More on the illegal gun discussion:

http://brianlilley.com/no-50-of-guns-used-in-crime-are-not-from-canada/

 

[Xylric]

I seem to recall reading a statistic from some years back (2010 or so) which strongly indicated that the majority of murders in Canada aren't even committed with firearms...

 

[Ostrozac]

I seem to recall reading a statistic from some years back (2010 or so) which strongly indicated that the majority of murders in Canada aren't even committed with firearms...

That is true. The number one cause of murder varies from year to year between shooting and stabbing, but neither category is ever large enough to be the cause of a majority of murders.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=3510006901

 

[ModlrMike]

It depends on how you frame the interpretation: guns account for the most frequently used means vs guns account for the majority of murders. You can make the results say what you want if you pick the right data point. Witness the oft cited 2016 is the worst year ever statistic, with the starting point of 2013. If you go back to 2011, there's no statistically significant increase in the number of gun related homicides (614 vs 611). In fact if you go back 20 years, there are eight periods where the numbers are equal or worse than today. Sample size matters.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics...

 

[Jarnhamar]

Big city criminals like using handguns because they're easy to conceal (obviously). The police I know in Toronto say the same thing. Our gun control is generally working. Criminals/gang members aren't carrying around their pistols every day and not everyone is carrying one like in the US.

They're very expensive, they're hard to obtain and they'll get in a lot of shit for having one both from the police and from their gang leaders (for getting caught and losing the pistol). A gang of 20 to 30 losers might have 2 or 3 guns they share between themselves. They'll hid them in construction yards and abandoned places and pick them up as required.

There's an estimated 10 million to 20 million guns in Canada. In 2015 there was 795,854 restricted firearms [384,888 in 2004].  Out of that 795'000 I believe I've read there's only 50'000 AR15 restricted firearms so lets say there's about 650'000 handguns.

If criminals are predominately drawn to pistols I find it hard to believe 50% of guns used in crime are sourced in Canada.

There are a few cases of legal gun owners selling their guns illegally but I think when I looked in the past I found maybe 5 or 6 examples in the news (I've seen the media say 40 cases but there seems to be no where near that many according to the google machine)
But lets just say even 20 people out of close to 2 million license holders. Not a significant amount.

Here's a picture from Cornwall Ontario (border town) on June 22nd 2018 of 78 guns seized. These weren't taken out of some target shooters basement and they didn't "fall off the truck" on the way to a Canadian firearms retailer.

Here is a picture of a seizure from June 2016 in Toronto. Once again, these aren't coming from firearm retailers in Canada.

These were the 33 guns confiscated from the Toronto shooters brother in 2017. Definitely a trend.

Theft of firearms from homes is a problem, especially out west in rural areas but a 3.5 foot long SKS isn't the weapon of choice for criminals so much less attractive to serious criminals and for sale on the black market.