The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[Haggis]

Exactly.

The PM has said that he will pursue further measures once Parliament is back sitting again and the pandemic has eased or passed.

The votes on the the buyback spending bill and the amendments to the Firearms Act will be whipped, of course, and the NDP and Bloc will probably support both.

This leaves the Conservatives between a rock and a hard place.  If they support the buyback spending bill they may be seen as throwing gun owners under the bus. If they oppose it and it and it fails, the Liberals may opt for straight up confiscation without compensation.

 

[lenaitch]

Yeah, I am curious to how it plays out.. I do not understand how The Liberals expect to make handguns a municipal issue, when firearms are federally regulated. It could make for some interesting back door applications of any new laws... or more effective defence of our current situation etc.

Far to many scenarios for me to hazard a guess, my little head is going insane trying to figure out how this will all play out.

Thanks for the insight though
Abdullah

As am I.  Introduced Bills are usually accompanied by a Justice Department analysis that includes a statement on Constitutional impact.  I'm neither a lawyer or Constitutional expert, but it would interesting to see how they would view such a Bill in view of Section 15.  I can envision an argument of 'geographic discrimination'.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The only real option for gun owners is to recoup some of the money they spent on the now prohibited firearms. And recoup the money they spent on the rest of the semi-automatic rifles and shotguns and pistols that will soon be banned.

Trudeau is untouchable. He can sexually assault, black face, intimidate and ethically violate himself from BC to Newfound land and back again and no one can do shit about it. Not enough people want to do shit about it. SNC shows us he doesn't care for rules or the law and gets what he wants.  But the SNC jobs. Liberals estimate the banning of these firearms will cost over 33,000 Canadians their jobs. What better timing than in the middle of a pandemic? Those jobs won't even be noticed.

Even with all the strategic voting bu Green and NDP voters the conservatives still won the most votes, but that doesn't matter.
What matters is Quebec and Toronto. It's going to take something catastrophic to turn Quebec away from Liberal promises and shake the downtown Toronto core away from them.

The Liberals didn't even read the petition for firearm owners that racked up 120K or 150K signatures. They simply don't care.

Gun owners can expect the minimal amount of outrage from the conservative party. They know they're largely seen as the only option for gun owners (who see firearm ownership/rights as a priority) but they won't really do much. Just like they didn't during their consecutive time in power.

I bet the Liberals are counting on non compliance (just like the massive non compliance in New Zealand).
First it paints gun owners as criminals (which tens of thousands of us technically are now) and second, the less prohibited guns Canadians turn in the less money the Liberals have to fork over.

 

[McG]

This leaves the Conservatives between a rock and a hard place.  If they support the buyback spending bill they may be seen as throwing gun owners under the bus. If they oppose it and it and it fails, the Liberals may opt for straight up confiscation without compensation.

If it is a spending bill, is it not a confidence vote?

 

[Brad Sallows]

If some municipalities find a way to block possession, storage, and use, then I predict that other municipalities will become centres of possession, storage, and use facilities, and make some money.  A small community near a punitively restrictive metro area could do quite well.

 

[OldSolduer]

On 1 May 2022 all RCMP personal security details should be redeployed to front line policing. After all there won’t be any scary looking weapons, right?

 

[QV]

I think by the time Trudeau gets finished the only legal firearms will be a small handful of single shot and bolt action rifles and a few models of shotguns. 

What a disaster for small businesses and those folks involved in shooting sports. 

 

 

[MilEME09]

If it is a spending bill, is it not a confidence vote?

Yes it would be

 

[Haggis]

If some municipalities find a way to block possession, storage, and use, then I predict that other municipalities will become centres of possession, storage, and use facilities, and make some money.  A small community near a punitively restrictive metro area could do quite well.

The PM will provide the way.  I can just envision myself driving to an IPSC match in western Ontario and having to completely avoid the Golden Horseshoe because it's a gun free zone.

 

[Eaglelord17]

His municipality ban will fail in court.

Cities get their powers from the Provinces not the Federal Government, it is why the Provinces can disband or create them, or modify their powers at will. He could give the powers to the Provinces (who should be the ones legislating firearms to begin with as Property is a Provincial responsibility not a Federal one), but he cannot skip the Provinces and go straight to the cities.

 

[PuckChaser]

The PM will provide the way.  I can just envision myself driving to an IPSC match in western Ontario and having to completely avoid the Golden Horseshoe because it's a gun free zone.

Shame that won't stop the gang bangers at Jane/Finch or Rexdale, but it'll stop you. What a joke.

 

[Haggis]

That's the diffrence between law abiding and criminal gun uses, a distinction lost on the Liberals.

So, my new term for armed criminals is "unaffected gun users". You saw it here first.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

 

[Jarnhamar]

I shaved off my manly beard in protest.

 

[brihard]

His municipality ban will fail in court.

Cities get their powers from the Provinces not the Federal Government, it is why the Provinces can disband or create them, or modify their powers at will. He could give the powers to the Provinces (who should be the ones legislating firearms to begin with as Property is a Provincial responsibility not a Federal one), but he cannot skip the Provinces and go straight to the cities.

Chiming in only to speak narrowly to this particular legal question: There's old constitutional law to the contrary on that. It goes back to when there were both a Federal and provincial Temperance Acts. The federal one gave municipalities a 'local option' to prohibit intoxicating liquors locally under the federal law. The federal law drew its constitutional legitimacy from the 'criminal law' head of power granted federally in the constitution. It went through various levels of appeals, but ultimately it was held in 1946 by the Judicial committee of the Privy Council (back when Britain still had the ability to ultimately decide our legal appeals) that it was within the constitutional authority of the federal government to give municipalities the option to ban liquor even in the face of overlapping provincial legislation. While this is pretty old jurisprudence, it has not been overruled, and supports the notion of the federal government being able to empower municipalities to prohibit certain things where it falls within matters that are typically in the federal sphere.

The chain of jurisprudence on this starts with Russell v The Queen (1882), and ends with Ontario (AG) v Canada Temperance Federation (1946). So the constitutional law on this actually may well specifically empower what the feds are considering doing. I've no doubt the federal counsel looking into this are well aware of this possibility, and it's classic constitutional law on division of powers and where federal and provincial authorities crash into each other.

I'm not entering the discussion into whether this is sound policy or not, I'm just offering the caution that the constitutional law on this may not say what you think and expect it does vis a vis the ability of the feds to statutorily empower municipalities.

 

[PuckChaser]

Unverified Reddit user, claiming to be LPC insider that leaked firearms list to media outlines what the Liberals are planning to do next.

https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaguns/comments/gdec16/this_is_whats_coming_next/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

The next tag line the party will push is women and domestic violence, as well as suicide. The point the government will be pushing is that women are victim of gun violence at home, and suicide by gun are happening because the gun is readily accessible at home.

They know that a ban on hunting rifles and shotguns will have very bad optics, but they feel they will be able to get away with central storage. The argument will be made that if the gun isn't readily available, it can save the lives of women and those who might re-think their suicide if they don't have their firearm handy, while not infringing on the rights of hunters by banning their firearms.

 

[Haggis]

Women are the fastest growing segment of the shooting sports in Canada.  This may come back to bite him.

 

[PuckChaser]

Women are the fastest growing segment of the shooting sports in Canada.  This may come back to bite him.

They also underestimate the ability of firearms owners to organize and get out to vote. With the amount of hoops someone has to jump through to just get a PAL/RPAL, whats 20 minutes in line to check the box next to Anyone But Liberal?

 

[Jarnhamar]

They also underestimate the ability of firearms owners to organize and get out to vote. With the amount of hoops someone has to jump through to just get a PAL/RPAL, whats 20 minutes in line to check the box next to Anyone But Liberal?

It won't matter unless the voters in down town Toronto change their tune.

 

[Haggis]

They also underestimate the ability of firearms owners to organize and get out to vote. With the amount of hoops someone has to jump through to just get a PAL/RPAL, whats 20 minutes in line to check the box next to Anyone But Liberal?

If that's true, then why didn't he get voted out last time?  Two reasons that I can see.

1. Because gun owners are fragmented and live in silos.  Trudeau won the hunter/farmer vote by not banning deer rifles and grand-daddy's shotgun this time. Next, he'll tell hunters and farmers that question him to simmer down, or they'll be hunting and defending their livestock with slings and sticks.

2. Too many gun owners drank the PPC Kool-Aid and put their faith in Mad Max.  Had they voted strategically (i.e. for the candidate most likely to defeat their local Liberal, whether Conservative or not) we may not be where we are today.

 

[Remius]

They also underestimate the ability of firearms owners to organize and get out to vote. With the amount of hoops someone has to jump through to just get a PAL/RPAL, whats 20 minutes in line to check the box next to Anyone But Liberal?

Too spread out and not enough to make a difference.  Like puckchaser said, Toronto is key and they don’t like guns.  And 60% of Canadians voted for parties with stricter gun legislation proposals.  I’m certain that firearms owners came out in max force last election and the one before it. 

I’m not sure that had a big effect.