The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[McG]

This leaves the Conservatives between a rock and a hard place.  If they support the buyback spending bill they may be seen as throwing gun owners under the bus. If they oppose it and it and it fails, the Liberals may opt for straight up confiscation without compensation.

If it is a spending bill, is it not a confidence vote?

 

[Brad Sallows]

If some municipalities find a way to block possession, storage, and use, then I predict that other municipalities will become centres of possession, storage, and use facilities, and make some money.  A small community near a punitively restrictive metro area could do quite well.

 

[OldSolduer]

On 1 May 2022 all RCMP personal security details should be redeployed to front line policing. After all there won’t be any scary looking weapons, right?

 

[QV]

I think by the time Trudeau gets finished the only legal firearms will be a small handful of single shot and bolt action rifles and a few models of shotguns. 

What a disaster for small businesses and those folks involved in shooting sports. 

 

 

[MilEME09]

If it is a spending bill, is it not a confidence vote?

Yes it would be

 

[Haggis]

If some municipalities find a way to block possession, storage, and use, then I predict that other municipalities will become centres of possession, storage, and use facilities, and make some money.  A small community near a punitively restrictive metro area could do quite well.

The PM will provide the way.  I can just envision myself driving to an IPSC match in western Ontario and having to completely avoid the Golden Horseshoe because it's a gun free zone.

 

[Eaglelord17]

His municipality ban will fail in court.

Cities get their powers from the Provinces not the Federal Government, it is why the Provinces can disband or create them, or modify their powers at will. He could give the powers to the Provinces (who should be the ones legislating firearms to begin with as Property is a Provincial responsibility not a Federal one), but he cannot skip the Provinces and go straight to the cities.

 

[PuckChaser]

The PM will provide the way.  I can just envision myself driving to an IPSC match in western Ontario and having to completely avoid the Golden Horseshoe because it's a gun free zone.

Shame that won't stop the gang bangers at Jane/Finch or Rexdale, but it'll stop you. What a joke.

 

[Haggis]

That's the diffrence between law abiding and criminal gun uses, a distinction lost on the Liberals.

So, my new term for armed criminals is "unaffected gun users". You saw it here first.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

 

[Jarnhamar]

I shaved off my manly beard in protest.

 

[brihard]

His municipality ban will fail in court.

Cities get their powers from the Provinces not the Federal Government, it is why the Provinces can disband or create them, or modify their powers at will. He could give the powers to the Provinces (who should be the ones legislating firearms to begin with as Property is a Provincial responsibility not a Federal one), but he cannot skip the Provinces and go straight to the cities.

Chiming in only to speak narrowly to this particular legal question: There's old constitutional law to the contrary on that. It goes back to when there were both a Federal and provincial Temperance Acts. The federal one gave municipalities a 'local option' to prohibit intoxicating liquors locally under the federal law. The federal law drew its constitutional legitimacy from the 'criminal law' head of power granted federally in the constitution. It went through various levels of appeals, but ultimately it was held in 1946 by the Judicial committee of the Privy Council (back when Britain still had the ability to ultimately decide our legal appeals) that it was within the constitutional authority of the federal government to give municipalities the option to ban liquor even in the face of overlapping provincial legislation. While this is pretty old jurisprudence, it has not been overruled, and supports the notion of the federal government being able to empower municipalities to prohibit certain things where it falls within matters that are typically in the federal sphere.

The chain of jurisprudence on this starts with Russell v The Queen (1882), and ends with Ontario (AG) v Canada Temperance Federation (1946). So the constitutional law on this actually may well specifically empower what the feds are considering doing. I've no doubt the federal counsel looking into this are well aware of this possibility, and it's classic constitutional law on division of powers and where federal and provincial authorities crash into each other.

I'm not entering the discussion into whether this is sound policy or not, I'm just offering the caution that the constitutional law on this may not say what you think and expect it does vis a vis the ability of the feds to statutorily empower municipalities.

 

[PuckChaser]

Unverified Reddit user, claiming to be LPC insider that leaked firearms list to media outlines what the Liberals are planning to do next.

https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaguns/comments/gdec16/this_is_whats_coming_next/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

The next tag line the party will push is women and domestic violence, as well as suicide. The point the government will be pushing is that women are victim of gun violence at home, and suicide by gun are happening because the gun is readily accessible at home.

They know that a ban on hunting rifles and shotguns will have very bad optics, but they feel they will be able to get away with central storage. The argument will be made that if the gun isn't readily available, it can save the lives of women and those who might re-think their suicide if they don't have their firearm handy, while not infringing on the rights of hunters by banning their firearms.

 

[Haggis]

Women are the fastest growing segment of the shooting sports in Canada.  This may come back to bite him.

 

[PuckChaser]

Women are the fastest growing segment of the shooting sports in Canada.  This may come back to bite him.

They also underestimate the ability of firearms owners to organize and get out to vote. With the amount of hoops someone has to jump through to just get a PAL/RPAL, whats 20 minutes in line to check the box next to Anyone But Liberal?

 

[Jarnhamar]

They also underestimate the ability of firearms owners to organize and get out to vote. With the amount of hoops someone has to jump through to just get a PAL/RPAL, whats 20 minutes in line to check the box next to Anyone But Liberal?

It won't matter unless the voters in down town Toronto change their tune.

 

[Haggis]

They also underestimate the ability of firearms owners to organize and get out to vote. With the amount of hoops someone has to jump through to just get a PAL/RPAL, whats 20 minutes in line to check the box next to Anyone But Liberal?

If that's true, then why didn't he get voted out last time?  Two reasons that I can see.

1. Because gun owners are fragmented and live in silos.  Trudeau won the hunter/farmer vote by not banning deer rifles and grand-daddy's shotgun this time. Next, he'll tell hunters and farmers that question him to simmer down, or they'll be hunting and defending their livestock with slings and sticks.

2. Too many gun owners drank the PPC Kool-Aid and put their faith in Mad Max.  Had they voted strategically (i.e. for the candidate most likely to defeat their local Liberal, whether Conservative or not) we may not be where we are today.

 

[Remius]

They also underestimate the ability of firearms owners to organize and get out to vote. With the amount of hoops someone has to jump through to just get a PAL/RPAL, whats 20 minutes in line to check the box next to Anyone But Liberal?

Too spread out and not enough to make a difference.  Like puckchaser said, Toronto is key and they don’t like guns.  And 60% of Canadians voted for parties with stricter gun legislation proposals.  I’m certain that firearms owners came out in max force last election and the one before it. 

I’m not sure that had a big effect.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Firearm owners mostly live in jurisdictions that already would not vote lib.

 

[PuckChaser]

2. Too many gun owners drank the PPC Kool-Aid and put their faith in Mad Max.  Had they voted strategically (i.e. for the candidate most likely to defeat their local Liberal, whether Conservative or not) we may not be where we are today.

Quickly looking at the numbers, PPC didn't have the support they thought they would. They only got 1.6% of the popular vote spread out across the entire country. Quickly looking at the numbers here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2019_Canadian_federal_election#Seats_won_and_lost_by_party I only found 1 riding that the Tory candidate would have won with the PPC votes.

I honestly think Andrew Scheer had an uphill battle to fight against the media and a long shot to make Trudeau a single-term Prime Minister. With a new leader, mounting debt, terrible economy and fractured national unity, the Tories will be better positioned in 2021 to take away the basic dictatorship Trudeau has cemented himself in. This firearms ban is also relatively easy to pick apart. Next May if the homicide rate by firearms hasn't dropped then there's hard data Trudeau did nothing for gun crime.

 

[ballz]

With a new leader, mounting debt, terrible economy and fractured national unity, the Tories will be better positioned in 2021 to take away the basic dictatorship Trudeau has cemented himself in. This firearms ban is also relatively easy to pick apart. Next May if the homicide rate by firearms hasn't dropped then there's hard data Trudeau did nothing for gun crime.

I am way less optimistic. Unless another scandal hits between now and a somewhat return to normalcy, I'd be surprised if we're not at the polls again sooner rather than later. The Liberals are polling in majority territory and the Conservatives are in shambles, wounded, leaderless, and the party is disenfranchised by the lackluster leadership candidates.

Once we're back to some normalcy, and by then we'll be experiencing economic recovery as it bounces back from people actually doing things again, the Liberals well say "well, situation has changed drastically, a new government needs a new, stronger mandate from Canadians to help us fully recover from this."