The Khadr Thread

[Brad Sallows]

A lawful combatant taken PoW may be detained without any sort of trial (indeed, one would not be expected) until cessation of hostilities.  From where comes this curious idea that unlawful combatants have a lesser liability to detention without trial?

 

[big bad john]

The problems stem from the fact that they are denied the rights of POWs, such as visits from a Protecting Power.

 

[1feral1]

As far as I am concerned even once released they are most likely to carry on where they left off.

Its just too bad they did not meet their fate on the battlefield, or now simply just conveniently disappear without a trace.

The whole lot of them are rotten.


My 2 cents,

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I fail to see how the terms, rights, trials, visits by Protecting Powers and POW's should be used in connection with terrorists. They're lucky to be alive. Strange there's no corresponding detention facility for the other side. Oh wait, coalition prisoners, aid workers and journalists, just get killed in front of cameras with no lawyer or trial, then the headless bodies are dumped into the rivers or tossed on the side of a road. Guess no facilities are needed afterall.

 

[Infanteer]

Two debates on the same thread here:  Detainment without Trial of Individuals and Torture of said Individuals (while being detained without trial).  Lets try not to get the wires crossed.

And here in western nations we have a benchmark for good reason, its called a fair trial in a court of law.

Is it possible to charge a terrorist fighter with crimes that are only really applicable in the jurisdictional boundaries of the United States?  Obviously, this doesn't fit and extradition treaties and international agreements with Afghanistan and Syria aren't going to work either.

As well, this statement is going on the assumption that what they are committing is a specific criminal act as opposed to carrying out general and continued hostilities against an opposing force.  As Brad Sallows pointed out, PW's are not entitled to a trial.  Seeing that these characters do not fit the status of an enemy PW nor a domestic criminal makes the situation a murky one at best, which can be termed a "4th Generation War" if you buy the theory, and lines get blurred when one doesn't fit into the preconceived designations.

That being said, getting back to the main topic of the thread, I think as Professionals and as citizens of a Western Liberal democratic country, we shouldn't be so quick to jeer at the notion of torture (if the allegations of the Kahdr chap is true - his ties lead me to believe otherwise).  Interrogation is a relevent capability and needs to be maintained, but torture clearly is something that we as a society cannot condone.  We've had it outlawed for at least a couple centuries now - why it should be acceptable now is beyond me.  As I said, the situation with these detainees is murky and doesn't fit our preconceived notions of "criminal" and "PW", but if we are resorting to torture one has to question if our approach to the murkiness is the right one to take.

 

[big bad john]

So do we have to sink to their level?  I guess then US law is only for US citizens  and then only at the US governments discrestion?

 

[Ghost]

See what happens when you don't listen

We told you to behave but no you had to go become a terrorist and its time to face the music asshole.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

They are at this point alive, and I suppose somewhat well. Yes they are detained and if they go to trial it should be a military one with no civvies involved in the actual proceedings. But we're not snatching them off the street and cutting off their heads on TV. I think we're already above their level and staying there. I guess the decent thing to do would be to let them out, give them tickets to wherever they wanted to go and ask them to please not kill anymore civilians or squaddies. I hope someday they are properly tried, in the meantime, they can't hurt anyone. Including my family.

 

[big bad john]

The moral thing would be to treat them according to law or....pass a new law which would properly take into account how war is waged now.

Please don't misunderstand me, I have no sympathy for these Cretans.  They deserve what they are getting and more.  But we must follow the rule of law.

 

[S McKee]

They are at this point alive, and I suppose somewhat well. Yes they are detained and if they go to trial it should be a military one with no civvies involved in the actual proceedings. But we're not snatching them off the street and cutting off their heads on TV. I think we're already above their level and staying there. I guess the decent thing to do would be to let them out, give them tickets to wherever they wanted to go and ask them to please not kill anymore civilians or squaddies. I hope someday they are properly tried, in the meantime, they can't hurt anyone. Including my family.

Right on

 

[big bad john]

I saw this quote on the home page of this site and it succinctly says what I am not eloquent enough to say.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
- Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from Birmingham Jail, April 16, 1963

 

[S McKee]

I saw this quote on the home page of this site and it succinctly says what I am not eloquent enough to say.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
- Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from Birmingham Jail, April 16, 1963

"Laws are inoperative in war"
- Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 B.C.): Pro Milone.

 

[Gunnerlove]

It is my personal opinion that the US is trying to figure out what to do with all of the detainees. If they were to put all of them on public trial they might end up looking like fools due to a widespread lack of evidence. Or they can hang onto them and not take the risk. Welcome to a very public game of hot potato.

Torture makes very little sense especially now as no one is going to provide any good Intel years after they were taken out of any loop they may have been in.

If we surrender our morality to our fears what will remain?

 

[Glorified Ape]

So do we have to sink to their level?  I guess then US law is only for US citizens  and then only at the US governments discrestion?

Indeed. I don't like Khadr or his family and I'm sure I wouldn't be too fond of 99% of the prisoners at Gitmo but arbitrary detention without trial, charge, or evidence only demonstrates that self-righteous sermons on freedom, liberty, and justice are as hollow as they are ridiculous.

See what happens when you don't listen

We told you to behave but no you had to go become a terrorist and its time to face the music asshole.

You're tough-talking a guy that can't hear you?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

There a lot of "assumptions" and "guesses" going on in this thread.  I have also heard that like in the days of slavery, opposing Muslims would sell out their neighbor for the cash reward in the early days of the war to 1) get the cash and 2) get rid of a problem which therefore results in some people going for an all expense paid trip to Cuba.  The detainees are being treated remarkably well for not even being POW and thats a fact.  Physical torture yields sketchy results at best as those having the screws but to them will tell you anything you want just to stop and that is also a fact.  Hell put me under a Chinese water torture long enough and I might start siding with Infanteer.  That said there are techniques that are being used that do provide positive results such as sensory deprivation, minimal diet, sleep deprivation etc.  There must also be a decision made on all dominate Christian society's as to what is the end goal of Islamic fundamentalists.  Is it total religious domination or merely the expulsion of heathens from their scared land.  If they plan on total domination then there is no place for negotiation and they all must be put to the sword wherever they are, whatever age, whatever sex and let history be the judge.  That isn't our way though and we pride ourselves on taking the moral high ground. We must decide whether we want to win and what it will take.  I believe that our culture has made us weak in that regard and we don't have the stomach to get the job done.  So we fight to a draw at best.

 

[S McKee]

CFL just what I was thinking but afraid to post

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

A jumper with 22 years experience.   You can't expect to make an omlette without breaking a few eggs.   I have no doubtly upset the beehive but the thing is, is that most of us have not experienced hardship the likes of the "greatest generation" our parents and grandparents.   Therefore they have no idea of what the world is like past Scarbough.   Hell I've only been to Bosnia and what I came with from that tour was that we are seriously blessed to live where we do.   We have it VERY easy.   No one in this country has a clue as to the real hardships out there.   We are facing a potential cultural cleansing and not many people seem to care as long as Will and Grace is on next week.

 

[Island Ryhno]

Sigh...Jamie Murphy never had the luxury of being put in a stress position. He was on a patrol, protecting a way of life in CANADA where the Khadr's are harboured. Jamie was thinking of going home to Candace, Norman, Alice, Johnny, Rosemary and Norma, plus his friends and my friends. I believe some of you may see how wrong our helping the Khadr's is when you read the names of Jamies girlfriend, father, mother, brother and two sisters. The Khadr family has admitted  on NATIONAL tv to being tied to a terrorist group directly responsible for the most horrible crimes against humanity since the nazis. The Khadr kid can burn there, we should deport the lawyers fighting for them as well. Terrorists do not give trials, they do not give captured soldiers the right to see a lawyer. They only one agenda; Kill. The do not give anyone the opportunity to plead for help. The way our government protects the Khadr family is a disgrace to all the people who have died at the hands of a terrorist. I wonder if I was a canadian aid worker who was captured by terrorist forces would the canadian media and government be so quick to come to my aid? Would I get the chance to tell the world how poorly I was treated. The whole Kadr clan should be deported as a minimum. We are being raped by this family at every chance, it's time for them to pay the piper, send his brother down to help alleviate the lonliness.

 

[a_majoor]

I fully understand why the issue brings out such strong emotions, but in one way we are being suckered by this guy's lawyer. The "torture" being described is about as intimidating as we get if we are captured in an E&E exercise: isolation, the stress position, sitting in the "cage" listening to atonal music...It is a play for sympathy and to try to get some soft headed judge to spring him.

Unfortunatly, there have already been a few cases of detainees who were sprung, only to be killed in combat with US SF teams in Afghanistan a few months later. The Laws of Armed Conflict are generally in agreement that captives can be detained until the end of hostilities; since these clowns have chosen to unleash a 30 years war on us, it stands to reason they will be held in captivity for the rest of their natural lives. If "Gitmo" is getting a bit crowded, perhaps we could offer Baffin Island as an alternative?

 

[big bad john]

Sigh...Jamie Murphy never had the luxury of being put in a stress position. He was on a patrol, protecting a way of life in CANADA where the Khadr's are harboured. Jamie was thinking of going home to Candace, Norman, Alice, Johnny, Rosemary and Norma, plus his friends and my friends. I believe some of you may see how wrong our helping the Khadr's is when you read the names of Jamies girlfriend, father, mother, brother and two sisters. The Khadr family has admitted  on NATIONAL tv to being tied to a terrorist group directly responsible for the most horrible crimes against humanity since the nazis. The Khadr kid can burn there, we should deport the lawyers fighting for them as well. Terrorists do not give trials, they do not give captured soldiers the right to see a lawyer. They only one agenda; Kill. The do not give anyone the opportunity to plead for help. The way our government protects the Khadr family is a disgrace to all the people who have died at the hands of a terrorist. I wonder if I was a canadian aid worker who was captured by terrorist forces would the canadian media and government be so quick to come to my aid? Would I get the chance to tell the world how poorly I was treated. The whole Kadr clan should be deported as a minimum. We are being raped by this family at every chance, it's time for them to pay the piper, send his brother down to help alleviate the lonliness.

I seem to remember the SS using that aargumenton "Terror Fliers".  They then sent 80 or so Commonwealth Aircrew to Belsen.  It took the Luftwaffe some months to free them.  Not all made it out.  I know what it is like when you see the people who hurt your ccomradesbragging and walking free.

We should change the laws and prosecute them, not deport the problem.  My problem is that we set rules for ourselves and then ignore these rules (read laws).  How can we expect others to respect our laws then?  Do they only apply when it is cconvenient  
"Officer my lad is really not bad.  It was his first time drinking and driving.  He didn't mean to kill those people.  So we'll just give him a pass".

If we are going to incarcerate these people, then let us set up a legal frame work to do so.  Otherwise we have no come backs on how other nations and organizations treat our troops when they become POWs.