The Khadr Thread

[Glorified Ape]

If you blatantly tortures the enemy, you definitely achieve two things: 1) You lower yourself.
2) You open the door to the enemy doing the same to your troops.

This is not a good thing when an Army breaks its own laws.

Hear hear.

Hard to condemn the savagery of others when one's busy engaging in it... or espousing it.

 

[chriscalow]

Lets see how his family cries when we show them what "tortures" are being done to coalition troops and other allies in captivity.  Eg: They CUT people's friggin HEAD'S off!!!!

I don't really agree with what has been done to him, but I've never been in that position.  I totally disagree with this whole bleeding hearts, everybody feel sorry for the little victim thing.  He went to a terrorist country to do .. whatever.  He knew what he was getting into.  He was captured in COMBAT fighting against the coalition.

 

[Horse_Soldier]

Lets see how his family cries when we show them what "tortures" are being done to coalition troops and other allies in captivity.  Eg: They CUT people's friggin HEAD'S off!!!!

I don't really agree with what has been done to him, but I've never been in that position.  I totally disagree with this whole bleeding hearts, everybody feel sorry for the little victim thing.  He went to a terrorist country to do .. whatever.   He knew what he was getting into.   He was captured in COMBAT fighting against the coalition.

There is a distinction between being captured in combat and detained according to the Geneva Convention - and torture.   "Bleeding hearts" aside, treating enemy prisoners in a degrading manner degrades the claims we hold to being "better" than the Islamist barbarians who mistreat and murder ours.   The fact that we should not shed a tear for his being detained as an enemy combatant is a separate issue - and no, he does not deserve any sympathy nor does he deserve any effort to release him from Guantanamo - but torture goes over the line.

 

[big bad john]

Lets see how his family cries when we show them what "tortures" are being done to coalition troops and other allies in captivity.  Eg: They CUT people's friggin HEAD'S off!!!!

I don't really agree with what has been done to him, but I've never been in that position.  I totally disagree with this whole bleeding hearts, everybody feel sorry for the little victim thing.  He went to a terrorist country to do .. whatever.   He knew what he was getting into.   He was captured in COMBAT fighting against the coalition.

Point 1) Beheading is the normal method of execution in a lot of Middle Eastern countries.  They feel the way you do about hanging.  They feel that it is barbaric.

2)  So what you're saying here is that his being captured in combat against the Coalition gives the US the right to torture him?

It has been said that one mans Terr is another mans Freedomfighter.  We have condemned our enemies use of torture over the years.  So now we sink to it.  It dirties our reputations.  I am not defending the Terrs or saying torture doesn't happen on all sides in a conflict.  But trying to i]Normalize[/i] it is wrong.  There is no excuse for saying what is wrong is right.  It is the start of eroding of everyones rights I fear.

 

[big bad john]

There is a distinction between being captured in combat and detained according to the Geneva Convention - and torture.   "Bleeding hearts" aside, treating enemy prisoners in a degrading manner degrades the claims we hold to being "better" than the Islamist barbarians who mistreat and murder ours.   The fact that we should not shed a tear for his being detained as an enemy combatant is a separate issue - and no, he does not deserve any sympathy nor does he deserve any effort to release him from Guantanamo - but torture goes over the line.

You say much more clearly than I sir.

 

[Britney Spears]

While none of us can offer much beyond speculation as to whether this fellow is actually guilty or not, the ham fisted way with which the Gitmo prisoners are being handled is only opening the door for further attacks against the US administration. None of this would have happened if charges had been laid openly against the detainees in a public court. Instead, the prisoners are denied even the privilege of knowing what the charges against them are. There is not even a pretense to justice under a closed military tribunal. For example, the <a href=http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,13743,1166826,00.html> five Britons released last year</a> had spent 3 years in Gitmo before been simply released. No charges were laid, no evidence presented, nada. The 5 had simply been arrested and locked up for 3 fsuking years without even know what they were being accused of. Presumably they are not terrorists, since the British authorities simply sent all of them home after a brief questioning upon their repatriation to the UK. If this is the way the administration wants to operate, then it better be prepared for a lot of criticism.  We gave the Nazis a trial, for gods  sake, why don't these guys deserve the same?

 

[GGboy]

The behaviour of interrogators towards "detainees" in Gitmo, if reported accurately, is first and foremost STUPID.
Torture of any kind rarely yields any kind of useful int. The victim simply tells the torturer whatever he/she thinks they want to hear: whatever it takes to stop the torture.
I wish I could say this kind of idiocy surprises me, but given some of the plain dumb things the current administration has done in Iraq and elsewhere, sadly it doesn't...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

None of us know the exact reasons, or the proof that put them there. They were captured during Ops. To speculate on "poor, misguided youth" or why people were released with no charges, is just that, speculation.

As to Khadr, we have only his pack of jackal lawyers and his word as proof of his abuse. Gimme a break. We've seen this kind of one sided fawning before. He was captured in combat, wounded while carrying out terrorist activities. Tough. Only my 00.02.

As to beheading, agreed, it is the normal way over there. However, it's usually accomplished with one swift sword stroke. Not a thirty second saw fest with an old butcher knife.

 

[Marauder]

"Bleeding hearts" aside, treating enemy prisoners in a degrading manner degrades the claims we hold to being "better" than the Islamist barbarians who mistreat and murder ours.

Hate to burst your bubble, but I think we're past the notion of who's better or who's soft side is softer. We're in play to win mode, folks. The Islamists aren't out to prove a point ala the USSR saying communism (more to the point Marxism and later Stalinism) works to the exlusion of other ideologies. The enemy we are now fighting is just out to kill and subjagate anyone not already in the House of Submission. They may kill each other over doctrinal and minor theological differences, but with the white guy in the Dar al Harb, it's only SUBMIT or DIE!!! WAKE. THE. FUCK. UP! This is the Marines fighting kamikaze nilhists on Iwo Jima and Guadalcanal, not the Allies taking it to the Hun face to face, man to man, across Europe. You can't be the "better man" when your whole unit/country/civilisation is dead and gone!

As for the little terrorist shitstain disgracing my citizenship and yours, FUCK 'EM. If you're gonna play the big boy's game, you better be willing to play by the big boys's rules. I don't imagine First Sergeant Speer would get Cuban sunshine, three squares, and the right to read his chosen religous tome had he survived the grenade attack and been taken prisoner by junior's pals.

No sympathy, no retreat.

As to beheading, agreed, it is the normal way over there. However, it's usually accomplished with one swift sword stroke. Not a thirty second saw fest with an old butcher knife.

Excellent point, RecceGuy. Funny though how some don't like to make the distinction.

 

[chriscalow]

I didn't say I agree with it, in fact I believe I said I don't agree with them torturing him.  Obviously "what do I know" comes into effect on this one, but I don't feel sorry for him.  I don't agree with hanging people, cutting their heads off.  I do feel that it is ludicrous that the U.S. Government would hold these people for so long with out even charging them.  I agree with his case (that they should charge him or let him go) , but I don't feel sorry for him.

 

[Infanteer]

Both sides are making interesting comments.  John is quite right to point out that we do ourselves no favours by reducing ourselves to wiping urine all over other people (if the allegations are true - as many like to point out, guilt must be proved).

Just a point though.  Blanket statements that state that a Gitmo prisoner is automatically innocent and is being "wronged" by being sent there are as foolish as blanket statements which assume that the US effort there is 100% successful.  These fellows aren't exactly being plucked off of the middle of the street, I am going to assume they were put there for good reason.  I remember reading somewhere that guys released from Gitmo were being found on the wrong side of Artillery strikes in Afghanistan.

 

[big bad john]

Perfectly true!  I personally suspect most of them are guilty as sin.

 

[Armymedic]

And we are assuming that young Khadr is telling the truth...

wheres the proof, or is this just another well orchastrated scam by his family and sympathetic lawyers?

Or are we being led to believe because at prison "A" islamic captives are being abused then they must be doing the same at Prison "B"?

 

[chriscalow]

And we are assuming that young Khadr is telling the truth...

wheres the proof, or is this just another well orchastrated scam by his family and sympathetic lawyers?

Or are we being led to believe because at prison "A" islamic captives are being abused then they must be doing the same at Prison "B"?

Right on, and this is exactly why the U.S. should press their charges and get on with the trial. 

 

[Britney Spears]

I am going to assume they were put there for good reason.

And here in western nations we have a benchmark for good reason, its called a fair trial in a court of law.

What defence could the US administration have, when it refuses to lay charges or provide evidence that any of the detainees should even be there? If he had indeed commited those "crimes" (whatever the definition of his actions could be) then why not charge him as such and put him on trial? Omar Khadr's detention itself was illegal and a violation of human rights by any western legal tradition.

 

[S McKee]

People like the Khadr family use their Canadian Citizenship like I use my Costco Card..gets you into the store for all the goodies. Should we feel sorry for these individuals or that their rights are violated? I think not. What about the rights of the 3000 people in the World Trade Centre. I could care less if the guy is put in a couple of stress postions so he'll talk. People like Khadr love using our rule of law and western values of human rights against us. The ultimate insult is that they will deny these rights to others. And before you philosophers out there respond with the "If we use torture we'll be no better than them argument" just remember in their eyes we are the infidel, the great Satan and Khadr's ilk are out to kill as many of us as they can before they zoom off to paradise.

 

[Fraz]

Indeed, this Khadr family seems to pop up every few months in the media, whether it was regarding the father who was killed while fighting Pakastani forces, the youngest son whom received special treatment due to his wounds suffered in combat with U.S Forces in Afghanistan.  If anyone recalls the 'special relationship' the family via the father had with Mr Bin Laden himself, or the multiple Canadian Passports that were issued to family members that went missing.... So many that in fact they have been refused new ones in recent applications.  Now the family and their lawyers want to create a media circus to discredit Cdn and U.S officials...
  I for one do not condone torture and if it comes out that any of these allegations are true, well then the appropriate steps, (ie: courts martials and jail time should follow) but, I do NOT feel sympathy for this vile excuse for a human being who tore up his Canadian citizenship the moment he left for Afghanistan and participated in attacks against the coalition (of which Canada is a part) In my mind we should be more focussed on extradition hearings against the whole bloody family in lieu of continually supporting people who's concern only rests with milking our gov't for all they can get.
As for the situation in Gitmo, as a whole we all know that it has been a can of worms from the start. To arrest, and detain persons without charge or trial is unlawful, however, as we also all know they are not prisoners of war, but detainees who are not protected by the Geneva Convention.  If a solution is to be found why not try them in the International Criminal Court? (oops forgot... the judge's panel is predominantly anti-semitic and sympathize with numerous terrorist groups: Hamas to name one) yet the world needs to find an effective and viable solution to deal with the extremists other than just letting them rot in Cuba.  
 All in all, I'm glad that lil Khadr is in a cell in Gitmo, as opposed to planting a mine or setting an IED in an alleyway that i might happen to walk through over there...

 

[chriscalow]

    In my mind we should be more focussed on extradition hearings against the whole bloody family in lieu of continually supporting people who's concern only rests with milking our gov't for all they can get.

HEAR HEAR!!!  I agree with everything else you said too, you just said it better than I did.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I can only guess that they have some sort of "checks and balances" in place. As to what they should and shouldn't do, when I become King, I'll write them a letter. Right now, it's well and above my head. They have their reasons, I'm sure, and right now they're good enough for me. I'll be the first to agree that innocent people, since time began, have been wrongfully damned. However, in the vast majority of criminal endevours, if you get caught, you were doing something you shouldn't have. For people that like to fly planes into buildings, blow up innocent shoppers, try to upset and destroy my way of life, I have no pity or sorrow. And right now I'm willing to let the US's judgement stand on how they treat the terrorist prisoners. Not POW's or common criminals, but terrorists. If somneone is at the wrong place at the wrong time, without a good excuse, sorry about their luck. His brother is home, you'd think he could've helped his brother out. Just how I feel.

 

[George Wallace]

Like Fraz and so many others, feel no sympathy for this family.  They don't have a leg to stand on legaly as far as I am concerned.  Cries of "Innocent until proven guilty" seem to be one sided in this case.  They are crying foul about their treatment and want "Compensation".  What of the innocence of the other side?  If they demand "burden of proof" that they are involved with Terrorist Organizations, then they should also produce "burden of proof" supporting their own claims.

Personally, I'd rather see their family, complete, out of our country; along with several other Terrorist and War Lord's families.  We have them here from Somolia, Syria, Indonnesia, and God knows how many other countries, living freely amongst us, raising funds for their organizations.  Time to clean house.

GW