The Merged Maher Arar Thread

[Bruce Monkhouse]

OK......My apologies.

I was reading the "brave Americans" as an insult to their troops. Hence the heat.....

 

[observor 69]

OK......My apologies.

I was reading the "brave Americans" as an insult to their troops. Hence the heat.....

Bruce I watch the PBS news each evening. At the end of the program they present the name, rank and photo of the most recent US causalties in Iraq and Afghanistan as they are released by the Pentagon.
I have watched this list as it has gone over 3000. You will not read any words from me denigrating the sacrifice of these fine people.

Senator Webb had a moving reply to the State of the Union Address this week. I quoted it here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/56419.0.html

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So they gave him 10.5 Mil, for being held and supposedly tortured. To bad our government didn't give the same consideration to our own Hong Kong vets. Who we KNEW were held, who we KNEW were tortured and who we know were legislated, by Canada, against suing for pain, suffering, and all the rest. We can do it for Arar, but not for our own valiant soldiers : He can stay on the no fly list for all I care. We've just given him enough money that he can afford to fly around the US if he wants to go somewhere.

 

[Rodders]

For those of you who draw comparisons between Arar and Canadian soldiers held prisoner and tortured after being captured in Hong Kong, or whom otherwise find cause to criticise him(Arar), do you give any creedence to the possibility that he may in fact have been innocent?

I'm not privy to any more information than most of you, and probably no less than most of you. For the overwhelming majority of us, are sources on this are at very best secondary. As such, we are required to speculate a great deal.

I'm certainly not a fan of the Bush administration, but I wouldn't consider myself "anti-American". What I find disheartening though is how many people here are tripping over themselves to point a finger of blame at Arar(even though he may in fact be innocent) but repulse at the mere suggestion that the US may very well have acted in an unacceptable fashion.

It is possible to criticise something the US does without necessarily being "anti-American".

 

[riggermade]

I think the problem most people have with this settlement is that there never has been absolute proof he was tortured and I said before, for someone claiming to be tortured for a year he looked in pretty good condition to me
As for the Americans it is their right to restrict movement in there country... right or wrong we will not be changing their decision any time soon

 

[vonGarvin]

Now we want proof he was tortured?  Most methods don't leave physical scars, but rather psychological ones.  I am still of the non-conspiracy theory that the US may indeed have something on him (something unproven, hence the lack of calling for his extradiction or stuff like that), maybe some whispers, that may very well be false.  I highly doubt that the US is too worried about "losing face" on this guy, since it's pretty low on the radar screen (I know, mixing of metaphors, but it was intentional), so, he's been paid off, now let's let this whole thing fade away...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

For those of you who draw comparisons between Arar and Canadian soldiers held prisoner and tortured after being captured in Hong Kong, or whom otherwise find cause to criticise him(Arar), do you give any creedence to the possibility that he may in fact have been innocent?

I'm not saying one way or another if he was or wasn't. What I'm saying is our Hong Kong vets were also denied due process and their basic rights as Canadian citizens were grossly violated, yet they got nothing. They were also innocent.

Before you start shooting off your gob, you better read, and understand, what's been written.

 

[Rodders]

Okay, to avoid essentially being told to shut up again, I wish to clarify my position.

I don't know if Arar was tortured, nor did I say that he was. I don't think anyone here knows for certain whether he was or wasn't. However, let's proceed on the assumption that he was. Does he deserve $10 million? I don't know. Should it be $1 million or a hundred million? Ten million may seem high, but if his assertions are correct, does he not warrant some sort of compensation? If not, it sure makes it easy for a government to do whatever it wants, knowing there can be no real accountability.

We compensate those who have been wrongfully imprisoned. Do those of you who oppose Arar being compensated also disapprove of this practice? If he was in fact innocent, than it is a fair analogy. He did suffer as a result of the actions/inactions of our(and his) government.

If we accept as some here believe that he wasn't tortured, it is nevertheless undeniable that he was sent to an unfriendly nation, and held by that country's security/intelligence forces. How many of us would like to spend some time with that department of the Syrian government? He, a Canadian citizen, was sent to a country against his will by a third country, who has yet to provide solid evidence to support their actions. Furthermore, the Canadian government(or at least it's security services) were involved. Is a simple sorry all that is warranted?

As I said in an earlier post, the US has every right to deny whomever it wishes from entering it's country. I don't have a big problem with that. But the fact that they have a right to do so does not mean that their assertions and charges are correct or accurate. They have the right as a nation to do this, but that doesn't diminish the position taken by Mr Arar.

Recceguy is quite correct when he talks about the sad and unacceptable way Canadian soldiers held in Hong Kong were treated. I am not, nor did I dispute that. But does this mean that no one should ever receive compensation for such treatment since the government made the wrong decision in the past? if it was wrong then, it's wrong now.

I think that as a society, we in the West are becoming far too accepting of actions taken in the name of "national security". Of course national security is important, and in the past few years, it has become more prevalent. This is because of new threats, and also because we in North America really knew nothing about such threats prior to current events. Ever wonder why there's no rubbish bins in the London Underground? It's because they've been exposed to this sort of threat for a much longer time than we have. I'm not suggesting that the threat isn't real. Of course it is. But that threat does not justify any and all actions taken by a government. If it does, than we have seen the end of free societies, and al-Qaeda might as well do a victory dance.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Thanks for finally understanding and acknowledging what I said. I said 'supposedly' as I don't think there's been enough physical proof to back the claim, I didn't say it didn't happen. I also never said he wasn't entitled. I have my own opininion on that, but it would only serve to inflame the rhetoric.

In the end, if he recieved that kind of compensation, so should those Vets.

 

[Journeyman]

I've been watching this thread spiral, figuring it's best to stay out. Common sense still urges that course of action.... ~sigh~

While avoiding the arguments about perception, establishment of guilt, how Hong Kong vets were treated....or even bringing up whose world-view was less correct - Hegel or Kant....the compensation is WRONG.  Why?  Because it establishes a ludicrous precedent.

Arar was detained by the US, on information they have stated was independent of anything provided by Canadian security. The US then shipped him off to Syria. Arar's primary complaint must be against the Syria and/or the US.

As a Canadian, he also has legitimate belief that the Canadian government (be it Liberal or Conservative at the time) would go to bat for him. He was visited by consular staff while in Damascus, the government has sent letters to both the Syrian and the U.S. governments formally objecting to Arar's treatment, and it has removed Arar from Canadian watch lists. The government, at that point, has done all that was required in this case. It further provided a formal apology; since Canada neither detained Arar nor shipped him to Syria, I believe this was not required - - a letter of sympathy perhaps, but not apology.

But paying him $10.5 million (plus supposedly 7-figure legal fees) sets a precedent for awarding someone for the actions of a non-Canadian third party. As a taxpayer, I have great heartache with the amount; as a pragmatic realist though, what should the Canadian government have done?
- Invade the US, then Syria? Obviously not.
- Send "sharply-worded diplomatic notes"? Well, that's what diplomacy is; let other nations know the views of our nation.
- Pay an outrageous amount of money for the acts of someone else? Again, obviously not.

 

[bilton090]

 Something smell's bad about Arar !, All the cops in two countries made a mistake, I don't think so !. What about him being seen having
lunch with a known terrist ?. I don't think he's on the up & up, but the U.S can stop people from flying in THERE country ! we should have
more of that here. But some people whouldn't like that.
                   
                             P.S - Spell Check not working
      He had the 15 min's of fame

 

[2 Cdo]

Riiiight, so the CPC will be implementing the recommendations of the O'Connor Report to fix all those Liberal  **** ups?

Sorry for the delay in replying but it seems to me with the "retirement" of the head of the RCMP and other high level RCMP officials that, at the very least, a house cleaning seems to be in order. Let's watch and shoot whether or not any other reccommendations are put in place.

Something smell's bad about Arar !,

Pretty much what I said a couple of pages ago. Something extremely fishy about his whole story. I worry about where this ten million dollars may just end up and with what groups!

 

[George Wallace]

Yes.  We will have to wait and see.  After his acceptance of the Government's apology and his thanks to Canadians and Canada, we will all have to wait and see how sincere he was.  Will he successfully fight the American measures taken against him in the US Courts?  Will he remain in Canada or will he move on to another land?  I would highly doubt that he would return to Syria, if he was really tortured by them; but if he does, it would be a very good indication that he probably was not......or that he is a very stupid man.

 

[GAP]

EDITORIAL TheStar.com - opinion
Arar's corrosive effect
January 26, 2007
Article Link

Should Prime Minister Stephen Harper be concerned that Maher Arar continues to be denied entry to the United States? Yes. Absolutely.

At the same time, U.S. Ambassador David Wilkins' suggestion this week that Ottawa mind its own business is nothing more than bluster designed to change an unpleasant subject.

To recap: The Americans arrested Arar in New York in 2002 as a terror suspect, shipped him off to Syria where he was tortured and continue to treat him with suspicion.

Meanwhile, Justice Dennis O'Connor conducted an exhaustive inquiry that cleared Arar of any ties to terrorism. And Public Security Minister Stockwell Day, who has seen U.S. information on Arar, continues to insist "Arar is not a threat."

That leaves the Americans looking as if they are vindictively targeting an innocent who is suing them for redress. That offends natural justice.

It so offends U.S. Senator Patrick Leahy, a Democrat and a voice for civil rights, that he has demanded an explanation from U.S. Attorney-General Alberto Gonzales, who has promised to brief Leahy on the case.

While no one disputes that the U.S. has the right to bar any Canadian it likes, as Wilkins so helpfully pointed out, it does not follow that Ottawa should go mute and butt out.

Not when the Americans are pressing us to share information on Canadian travellers with them.

The Arar case is corrosive to bilateral relations because it typifies Washington's high-handed approach to border security, terror watch lists and "no-fly" lists.

The Americans seem to be saying they will ban whomever they like and they won't give reasons, and that they will deport people to be tortured if that's what they feel like doing. Simultaneously, they seem to be saying Canada must share every bit of information it has about anyone who proposes to cross the border.

Well, Canada doesn't have to hand over our information if the U.S. doesn't take our concerns seriously.

That is why Harper should tell U.S. President George Bush that this lopsided take on North American security does not work for us.
More on link

 

[Journeyman]

EDITORIAL TheStar.com - opinion
While no one disputes that the U.S. has the right to bar any Canadian it likes, as Wilkins so helpfully pointed out, it does not follow that Ottawa should go mute and butt out.

Yes, anonymous Toronto Star propaganda opinion writer, it follows exactly. If the tables were turned, you'd likely be amongst the first to deny your faulty logic to bellow "hey, this is Canada; the US should butt out of our policy!"

For the government to continue to protest, when it has apparently (and expensively) come to terms with Arar, looks merely like petulant whining. Perhaps the government has chosen to leave that load station to Star editorial writers.  :

 

[armyvern]

Sorry to necropost, but figured this was worthy of note.

Reproduced under the Fairdealings Provisions of the Copyright Act ...

RCMP closes probe into Arar leak without laying charges

The Ottawa Citizen

Thursday, September 04, 2008

The RCMP has closed its criminal investigation into leaks of the Maher Arar file without laying any charges, according to media reports.

The criminal probe, which was dubbed Operation Soya, began five years ago, after documents were leaked to former Citizen reporter Juliet O'Neill, now with Canwest News Service.

The dossier outlined the RCMP investigation into Mr. Arar, a Syrian-born telecommunications engineer, who was detained at a New York airport in September 2002 by U.S. officers and eventually deported to Syria.

...

I wonder if Mr. Arar will be satisfied with this latest "closure"; somehow me thinks not. Quite sure he'll have a statement to make tomorrow.

 

[McG]

Khadr ID'd Arar as visitor to al Qaeda training camps
Updated Mon. Jan. 19 2009 7:51 PM ET
CTV.ca News Staff

When Omar Khadr was still a teenager, he identified fellow Canadian Maher Arar as someone who had attended al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan, according to the testimony of an FBI agent.

At Khadr's trial in Guantanamo Bay on Monday, Robert Fuller said Toronto-born Khadr had picked out Arar from various ID photographs, during interrogations in 2002. He was 15 years old at the time, and wounded by shrapnel.

"He identified him by name," Fuller testified. "He said he had never seen him in Canada."

Arar was deported by U.S. authorities to Syria, where he was tortured for nearly a year until he falsely confessed to being a terrorist. The incident sparked a commission of inquiry in Canada, which publicly cleared him of any links to terrorism.

He was awarded $10.5 million in government compensation. The U.S. government, however, has refused to clear Arar's name, and still lists him as a terror threat.

Arar has staunchly denied ever visiting Afghanistan.

According to an affidavit filed last year with the war crimes court, Khadr said Canadian agents also questioned him about Arar when they visited Guantanamo in 2003 and 2004. But he does not say what he told them.

"They showed me pictures and asked who people were. I told them what I knew," Khadr said in the affidavit.

"I tried to co-operate so that they would take me back to Canada," he said. "I told them that I was scared and that I had been tortured."

Khadr's Pentagon-appointed lawyer, Lt.-Cmdr. Bill Kuebler, said that his client, like Arar, has been wrongly accused of terrorist activities.

"It's a case where there was a rush of judgment and there were conclusions reached without the basis of full evidence," he told CTV Newsnet by phone.

The startling testimony came during Khadr's war-crimes hearing in Guantanamo, where he is accused of throwing a grenade that killed a U.S. soldier during a firefight in Afghanistan in 2002.

Shortly after his capture, Khadr, now 22, told interrogators that he had tossed the grenade, the military court heard earlier Monday.

"He pulled the pin and just chucked it over his shoulder," a top-secret female interrogator told a military tribunal in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

"He had never thrown one before, so he just threw it over his shoulder, like he had seen in the movies."

The agent, identified as Interrogator 11, added that Khadr initially took pride in killing a U.S. soldier, but over the course of more than a dozen interviews with Guantanamo Bay officials, he came to realize that the U.S. soldiers had actually saved his life.

Under cross-examination, it was revealed the agent destroyed her notes of the interrogation sessions after she had typed them up -- something she could not explain. She also denied she had promised Khadr he would be sent home if he co-operated.

Khadr faces a number of charges and has spent more than six years in the infamous prison awaiting his trial, which is finally set to begin on Jan. 26. She is the only Western citizen left in the prison.

Khadr's state-appointed lawyer is trying to have those charges thrown out, arguing that his young client made the grenade confession under extreme coercion from interrogators.

But the U.S. agent denied those allegations and told the court that Khadr was often "very happy" to talk.

"When he would come to the room he was always smiling. He would willingly speak to me," she said.

Earlier in the day, Khadr's lawyer unearthed a new side to the case, telling the court that a third person had been found alive when Khadr was captured in a wrecked Afghan bunker more than six years ago.

The revelation raises the possibility that someone other than Khadr threw the grenade that killed Sgt. Chris Speer, the defence argued.

The defence went on to say that the U.S. government should have to create a whole new case for Khadr.

But the judge denied that request Monday.

In response, Kuebler will try stalling the case from going ahead until mid-March.

Kuebler also told the court that he never had access to crucial case documents and should have time to include them in his defence.

It is unclear what will become of Khadr and other prisoners when president-elect Barack Obama takes his oath of office Tuesday.

Obama has vowed to close the prison, a move that could come as early as this week. But he has not said what he will do with the prisoners who have been held there.

Khadr's plight was further muddied last month, when the Pentagon withdrew its charges against him and then re-filed them.

Khadr's defence team argues that Monday's proceedings should include re-arraignment, but the Pentagon has said the re-filing was a mere formality.

Kuebler argues that the move terminated the existing military commission, which means a new one must be established.

The commission judge is considering the arguments made by both sides.

Khadr's lawyers have also argued that statements he has made to interrogators about the case have been extracted under torture.

If Obama issues an executive order to close the prison, the move will likely trigger a case-by-case review of each prisoner left in custody to determine whether they should stand trial in the U.S. or be sent to their home countries.

Last week, Kuebler called on Prime Minister Stephen Harper to request that Khadr be returned to Canada.

However, Harper said he understood Obama's decision to close the prison was a result of widespread concerns that many detainees have not been charged with crimes.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090119/Omar_Khadr_090119/20090119?hub=TopStories

 

[old medic]

Here is the CP story:

Khadr ID'd Arar as visitor to al-Qaida safehouses: FBI agent
By Colin Perkel, THE CANADIAN PRESS
19th January 2009

GUANTANAMO BAY, Cuba — A teenaged Omar Khadr identified Canadian Maher Arar, who was tortured in Syria after he was sent there by American authorities, as someone he had seen at al-Qaida safehouses and training camps in Afghanistan, an FBI special agent testified Monday.

Khadr made the identification from photographs the agent, Robert Fuller, showed him during interrogations several months after the Toronto-born Khadr was captured following a firefight in Afghanistan in July 2002.

“He identified him by name,” Fuller testified. “He said he had never seen him in Canada.”

Arar became the subject of a commission of inquiry in Canada, which publicly cleared him of any links to terrorism and gave him a $10.5-million settlement.

The U.S., however, has refused to clear his name.

The evidence is the first public indication of precisely why authorities in the U.S. would have deemed it necessary to “render“ Arar to Syria after detaining him, instead of following the usual procedure of deporting him to Canada.

Monday’s dramatic evidence came at Khadr’s war-crimes hearing in which prosecution witnesses testfied Khadr admitted throwing a hand grenade at approaching U.S. forces in Afghanistan just like he had seen in the movies.

The incident occurred after three other men at the bombed-out Afghan compound had been killed by American forces and Khadr, then 15 and partially blinded from shrapnel, cowered under a bush as the soldiers moved in, a military intelligence testified he told her.

“He pulled the pin and just chucked it over his shoulder,” the agent, identified only as Interrogator 11, told the hearing.

“He had never thrown one before, so he just threw it over his shoulder, like he had seen in the movies.”

The U.S. Dept. of Defence interviewed the Toronto-born Khadr about a dozen times — some sessions lasting as long as five hours — after he arrived at this infamous prison in more than six years ago.

The Pentagon accuses him of throwing the grenade that killed U.S. Sgt. Chris Speer at the badly damaged compound near Khost, Afghanistan, on July 27, 2002.

“He explained that entire day in minute detail,” said the agent, the first witness to testify at the proceedings.

The young Canadian, now 22, was found under the rubble and badly injured with three gunshot wounds following a four-hour firefight.

The agent said Khadr initially expressed pride in having killed an American soldier, but later came to realize it was the Americans who saved his life.

Parts of a 27-minute video seized by U.S. forces after the firefight shows a baby-faced, grinning Khadr in the company of al-Qaida leaders helping assemble and lay improvised explosive devices.

FBI Special Agent Robert Fuller, who interrogated Khadr at the Bagram base in Afghanistan, said as the video was played for the hearing that Khadr told him he was happy to be with the men.

The defence has maintained Khadr’s incriminating statements were the result of coercion and are trying to get the judge to throw them out.

Both agents, however, denied there was any abuse of Khadr of threats against him.

On the contrary, Khadr was “very happy” to see her and she considered the information he provided reliable, Interrogator 11 told Col. Patrick Parrish, who is presiding over the case.

“When he would come to the room, he was always smiling. He would willingly speak to me,” she said.

While Khadr’s leg irons were shackled to the floor, the intelligence agent said she took off his handcuffs to make him feel comfortable and never felt that he posed a threat.

Khadr, dressed in the all-white uniform of Camp 4, where “highly compliant” prisoners are kept, appeared relaxed during the proceedings.

He smiled broadly, chatted with his lawyers, and read documents intently. Sporting a neatly cropped full beard, the six-foot Khadr looks far different than the now-familiar photo of him at 15.

Khadr described in detail how he had been trained by top al-Qaida figures — associates of his father — in surveillance techniques and in making and laying explosive devices aimed at American forces.

His father, who was killed in a raid in Pakistan, ran two agencies that raised funds for al-Qaida. The Khadr family often stayed with terrorist financier Osama bin Laden.

The defence argues intelligence agents abused Khadr, while a “clean” set of law-enforcement interrogators later took incriminating statements from the Canadian.

“The fact that he could provide me with so much detail of everything . . . I thought that information was very reliable,” Interrogator 11 said.

During cross-examination, defence lawyers tried to pick holes in the testimony, but the agent stood her ground.

She denied promising he would go home if he co-operated with her. She was also unable to explain why she destroyed her notes of the interrogation sessions after she had typed them up.

Parrish, dubbed by some the “Docket Rocket” for his move-ahead style, said he would likely rule Tuesday whether Khadr’s trial, slated for Jan. 26, would go ahead or be delayed to give the defence more time to prepare.

The proceedings Monday came one day before Barack Obama, who has promised to close the infamous prison on this isolated stretch of Cuba, is sworn in as U.S. president.

Khadr is the lone westerner still held here.

Earlier, defence lawyers raised the suggestion for the first time that a third person had been found alive in the rubble of the Afghan compound.

Lt.-Cmdr. Bill Kuebler, one of Khadr’s defence lawyers, said he needed more records to help determine whether in fact that was the case.

The court has previously heard evidence that a second person found alive in the rubble was shot dead by American troops. The defence said that raised the possibility someone else threw the grenade that killed Speer.

Khadr’s lawyers have repeatedly argued he should be considered a child soldier, and returned to Canada, but Prime Minister Stephen Harper has refused to get involved in the case.

The military commission process has been widely condemned as a sham legal system.

 

[geo]

Ummm..... at this stage in the game..... SO WHAT ?

Omar Khadr is the one on trial.
The Gov't of Canada has investigated, found that they had erred in their handling of the Arar case & paid a bundle for it.

Also, even if Maher Arar was the godfather of Omar Khadr (which he ISN'T) what the H does that have to do with it.

The US has chosen to put Omar Khadr on trial for the murder of a Medic - during a battle - in a combat zone, in the middle of Afghanistan.  Unless the US prosecutors are prepared to say that Mr Arar pulled the pin, handed the grenade to Mr Khadr and told him to throw the grenade at the Medic - what does this have to do with anything ?

 

[Garett]

I think its pretty interesting that in 2002 he picked him out of a photo lineup and knew his name. Just as I thought before, it sounds like Arar did an excellent job of employing the trg he received in that trg camp once he was caught.

I'm in Obama's corner, I hope he does well and turns things around on the economic and security fronts but I don't have that warm and fuzzy feeling. I bet he sees the world differently after all the top secret briefings he has received leading up to his inauguration. I don't see the prison in GITMO closing tomorrow.