The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE

[AbdullahD]

I find it's the optics of it.  It's basically supporting segregation in the defense that it's a religious thing. Lets face it  like Islam is hardly renown for women's rights, there's larger ramifications.
The Prime Minister wouldn't go smile and rub shoulders at an event where first Nations or Black Canadians are shoved in a back room as a part of some tradition, because this is religious doesn't make it acceptable. We need to emphasis separation of state and church, not overlook it. 

I would go so far as to suggest putting up cameras in churches and mosques to avoid what's going on in the video I posted above.

First off, I completely concede that Islam these days is hardly famous for espousing womens rights and I'll even go farther and say 'some' cultural spiritual leaders who do not respect the religion are making it worse.

But, the majority of our ladies, want to be segregated during prayer. A lot of them like to wear burkas and niqabs and the majority enjoy the Hijab. My wife and I were discussing a video she watched about how our women are more likely to be harrassed then Muslim men and I hold that to be true... this mentality just feeds those fears our women have.

An anecdotal story about my wife and I. We are both white reverts and we were wearing more traditional Islamic clothing one day at costco... and while I went to grab something a lady came up and started grilling my wife over wearing the hijab... sadly for the lady, my wife is no coward, so it ended on a good tone... but if a language barrier existed it could have gone very badly, because of how this lady started out.

So do we force an opinion on to people who are doing something other then what we agree with, just because we disagree with it? Now if the ladies are being oppressed, ill be the first one to speak out... but if they are happy who are we to say otherwise? My wife personally dislikes praying in front of any men... it is like i am some hoodlum when she prays... apparently she 'feels' my eyes lol... so now i highly suspect my wife would never go to the mosque if she was being forced to pray in the same room as men... and my wife doesnt even wear hijab all the time.

So now is Canadian culture how we dress, what God we pray to and by which name or is Canadian culture something bigger then that?

Reading this thread, I believe Canadian culture is something bigger then these small things. We are the people who are polite, who say sorry, we are the great north. So yes, some things we have done may allow fools to corrupt canadian values, but I wouldn't worry about religious women... at least in my opinion, because I find the religious ladies are much better then the religious men

Abdullah

Ps I had a Pakistani guy who hates the west make the arguement that Canada has no culture once to me. So it just occurred to me that hate groups could take this rhetoric that Canada has no culture and make us seem weak and effeminate.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Interesting that he seems to equate our Mounties history in the West to the US Army's history in the West, in the building of our two nations.  Two vastly different histories and two vastly different methods of dealing with the natives.

Not at all the same.  My great grandfather was one of the original 300 and was on the great march west in 1873.  They had good relations with the many tribes and in fact were sent to stop Americans coming up and selling rot gut whiskey to our natives (among other things).  The settlement of the west was for the most part peaceful and aside from such things as the Riel Rebellion a great success.  My  great grandfather went on to become the first white honoured with a headdress, native name and status as an honorary chief of the Peigan Band at Brocket.

 

[mariomike]

We are the people who are polite, who say sorry, we are the great north.

There are sometimes exceptions.

We are both white reverts and we were wearing more traditional Islamic clothing one day at costco...

I think folks at GTA Costco are likely to be more concerned with parking than wardrobe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvuFvak7NgI

 

[Jarnhamar]

Good points Abdullah, thanks for shining a light on the other side.

If Muslim women want to wear Burkas and be segregated in a mosque that's their business though when you say the majority of your* women want to wear it and be segregated I can't help but imagine a number of them do so out of fear- the same way abused women inconceivably stay with their abusers.

Issues for me arise when Muslim men (and women) take that segregation mindset they're so comfortable inside a mosque (PM approved) and bring it out to public. Women being verbally and physically assaulted because of how they dress (of course that's a two way street with Muslim women assaulted too).
Furthermore that mindset transcends to classrooms, gyms, pools, clubs etc.. as we've discussed in other threads.

You say the majority of Muslim women enjoy the Burka etc.. because they're more likely to be harassed by Muslim men and (I'm paraphrasing) this some how helps? Perhaps wearing it and being segregated simply feeds into atmosphere of harassment.  If I had a female subordinate who was being harassed by her peers I wouldn't tell her to cover up and eat/socialize away from the men to fix the problem.

*I'm sure it's not the case with you but this could be viewed in the context that women are property considering the Quran's views on women, yes?

 

[AbdullahD]

Good points Abdullah, thanks for shining a light on the other side.

If Muslim women want to wear Burkas and be segregated in a mosque that's their business though when you say the majority of your* women want to wear it and be segregated I can't help but imagine a number of them do so out of fear- the same way abused women inconceivably stay with their abusers.

Issues for me arise when Muslim men (and women) take that segregation mindset they're so comfortable inside a mosque (PM approved) and bring it out to public. Women being verbally and physically assaulted because of how they dress (of course that's a two way street with Muslim women assaulted too).
Furthermore that mindset transcends to classrooms, gyms, pools, clubs etc.. as we've discussed in other threads.

You say the majority of Muslim women enjoy the Burka etc.. because they're more likely to be harassed by Muslim men and (I'm paraphrasing) this some how helps? Perhaps wearing it and being segregated simply feeds into atmosphere of harassment.  If I had a female subordinate who was being harassed by her peers I wouldn't tell her to cover up and eat/socialize away from the men to fix the problem.

*I'm sure it's not the case with you but this could be viewed in the context that women are property considering the Quran's views on women, yes?

Valid points and in some cases you are 100% right. But I am here to argue it is the minority that this is right for.

Maybe I messed up with my thoughts, if you got women wear the burka, hijab, niqab to please their men or avoid harassment. Now I am not saying sometimes that they do, but the Majority do it because they wish to please god. Modesty is a respected and honored characteristic in Islam, so some ladies feel that wearing burkas and niqabs show or make them feel more modest... and thus closer to god.

I am having a hard time trying to figure out how to communicate how or why women like to pray separate from men... maybe I will do it in reverse? Lets say I am praying and a hot women starts praying in front of me it is hard not to check her out... so being segregated takes that temptation and desire out... hmm, that sounds wrong.. also makes me sound like a pig lol

Anywho I will leave off that line for now.

We dont wish our women to be segregated to avoid being harrassed and neither do they wish to be. A very great many of us Muslim guys, have daughters, sisters and all of us have mothers, we are generally fairly well adjusted folk and lets just put it this way... if my daughter  or wife comes and tells me she wants to pray apart from the men, because they are being harrassed... their will be a fight and the pigs harrassing the women wont like it, but up to this point in my travels I have not heard this used as the arguement for separated prayer rooms. Albeit my opinion is that it is not obligatory to be seperated and I can quote scholars and instances all the way back to the prophet to support my point of view.

I'll ask my wife, likely I have it all wrong anyways, I really dont know how ladies think.. at all. If she has anything enlightening to add, ill throw it into one of the other Islam threads so we dont completely hijack this one lol

Sorry I could not properly explain, probably be easier if I was a lady

Abdullah

 

[Kirkhill]

Abdullah -

There is a sense of possessiveness that comes across in your posts that is at odds with egalitarian sensibilities.  Jarnhamar demonstrated one instance. In your response you offered "We dont wish our women to be ...."

I am fairly certain that many non-muslim women would be disconcerted were "we" (non-muslim males) to describe them as "our" women.

I am sure that this just a distraction of tone.  But it does tend to undermine your own positions.

 

[AbdullahD]

Abdullah -

There is a sense of possessiveness that comes across in your posts that is at odds with egalitarian sensibilities.  Jarnhamar demonstrated one instance. In your response you offered "We dont wish our women to be ...."

I am fairly certain that many non-muslim women would be disconcerted were "we" (non-muslim males) to describe them as "our" women.

I am sure that this just a distraction of tone.  But it does tend to undermine your own positions.

I used it to illustrate Muslim women, Muslims are taught that we are on big family with Jews and Christians as our cousins, religiously speaking.

I am not an orator, or a theologian, or politician.. or any such thing. I am just me, so I do make many mistakes and heck I have even been known to be wrong on occasion. The views I bring up here are just that my own, when talking about Islam I try to be unbiased.

Now I cant say I feel possessive of Muslim women, maybe protective... but thanks for bringing it up.

Ps I went back and re read the post. I can see where you are coming from completely, but since we are not debating every little thing... at least to my knowledge I think I will leave it as is, because it was my wife and I do the thinking and I feel it does not imply misogyny on my part.

 

[Kirkhill]

As I said,  it is a matter of tone.  And easy to be misunderstood.

Sorry for the intrusion on this one.  I enjoy reading your posts.  They're very helpful in supplying insight into your faith.

Regards. 

 

[jmt18325]

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/religion/alberta-appeal-court-rules-judges-can-overturn-unfair-church-edicts

And things may be changing.  I'm not sure that would survive all the way to the SCOC though.

 

[jmt18325]

Yes and No.  Cultures naturally evolve over time.  We have created a culture in Canada, that some fail to acknowledge, which we in doing so also want to protect it from such changes as this:

The culture that Canada has created is only temporary, as you admit in your post.  There has always been a fear that the 'other' would destroy this country.  It's never happened yet. 

Canada is a reflection of the ever changing dynamic of its people.

Unfortunately, in creating our "culture of understanding, tolerance and equality" we have naively fallen into a trap thinking that all the world's cultures would be just as accepting.  We have written a Charter of Rights and Freedoms, with which some less than ethical and less than moral elements have been able to use as a "tool" to bring their less than desirable traits to some form of 'legality'/acceptance in our society.

Us upholding our own laws and principles doesn't make us naive.  It makes us principled.  That people in other places wouldn't do the same for us, is irrelevant.  No matter what changes may occur in our culture over time, these principles will guide us.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=AbdullahD]

maybe I will do it in reverse? Lets say I am praying and a hot women starts praying in front of me it is hard not to check her out... so being segregated takes that temptation and desire out... hmm, that sounds wrong.. also makes me sound like a pig lol[/quote]

A bit ya.
Sounds like your suggesting women need to dress a certain way and pray elsewhere in order to accommodate men.

Like Chris mentions, you're a really polite and articulate poster but a sense of possessiveness still comes across through your posts. (but you spoke to it, no worries)


[quote author=AbdullahD]Now I am not saying sometimes that they do, but the Majority do it because they wish to please god. [/quote]

[quote author=AbdullahD]I really dont know how ladies think[/quote]

How can you speak on behalf of the majority of Muslim women but admit to not know how they really think? 


While I'm sure some women chose to wear said garments I think you're overestimating the number that do it willingly sans fear of retribution and abuse. I kind of feel like it's a convenient justification for men to make on behalf of women. In Afghanistan for example  it wasn't the women who decided to start wearing Burkas en mass, it was decided for them by the Taliban.

Sorry I could not properly explain, probably be easier if I was a lady

You're in luck if you join, the CF will pay for that

 

[mariomike]

I really dont know how ladies think.. at all.

When you figure that out, please let me know!

 

[George Wallace]

Canada is a reflection of the ever changing dynamic of its people.

Those words, spoken by a certain individual, really revolt me.  Sorry.  That you 'quote' him, is disagreeable to me.

Us upholding our own laws and principles doesn't make us naive.  It makes us principled.  That people in other places wouldn't do the same for us, is irrelevant.  No matter what changes may occur in our culture over time, these principles will guide us.

You seem to have missed the point.  It is relevant and it is happening here now.  Whether you agree with Ezra Levant or not, he is but one example of what has happened in the past two decades, all through the manipulation of the Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms to attack him.

 

[jmt18325]

You seem to have missed the point.  It is relevant and it is happening here now.  Whether you agree with Ezra Levant or not, he is but one example of what has happened in the past two decades, all through the manipulation of the Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms to attack him.

I have no love in my heart for provincial human rights commissions.  Those issues should be handled in the courts.

As for Ezra Levant - there are always two sides to that story.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Interesting that he seems to equate our Mounties history in the West to the US Army's history in the West, in the building of our two nations.  Two vastly different histories and two vastly different methods of dealing with the natives.

That tells you HIS read of Canada's history, indeed.

 

[Loachman]

You're in luck if you join, the CF will pay for that

Funny - that's the first thing that I thought.

Waiting until after joining likely simplifies the recruiting and BMQ/BMOQ processes as well.

 

[Kirkhill]

Jmt:

You are correct when you say that culture is changing.  But culture changes for a variety of reasons.  Some are pulls.  Some are pushes.  Some are high speed.  Some are low speed.  Some develop "naturally".  Some are induced. 

The problem, in my mind is with the induced changes.  The problem that I have is that some of the people doing the inducing are doing it because they wish to destroy that which is in place.  In their mind there might be perfectly good reasons for destroying the status quo.  I might even be persuaded that their reasons are valid.  From that point of departure comes the question of whether or not I agree that the change needs to happen or do I just accept the change because it really isn't that much of an issue to me and my life.

But the problem that the people that promote the change need to understand is that they cannot be surprised when people disagree with them and actively oppose them.

In the current dialogue too many of the people promoting changes seem to fail to accept that people that do not share their views are not evil.  They are not even misguided or ignorant.  They just simply disagree.

And in a democracy there are dispute mechanisms in place to resolve those disagreements.

The next problem that comes is acceptance.

You can't keep telling people that they are wrong, misguided, ignorant, uneducated, vile and not expect a response.  Even the most civil of individuals must eventually be expected to push back eventually.

Civil.  Civility.  A concept that has gone out of favour.  It became unfashionable to be civil in the 1960s.  To be polite and mask your true feelings so as not to provoke a fight was seen as hupocrisy.

For the record, from the OED:

civility
NOUN

1[MASS NOUN] Formal politeness and courtesy in behaviour or speech.
‘I hope we can treat each other with civility and respect’


1.1Polite remarks used in formal conversation.
‘she was exchanging civilities with his mother’

Origin
Late Middle English: from Old French civilite, from Latin civilitas, from civilis relating to citizens (see civil). In early use the term denoted the state of being a citizen and hence good citizenship or orderly behaviour. The sense ‘politeness’ arose in the mid 16th century.

Pronunciation:
civility/sɪˈvɪlɪti/

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/civility

Civility used to be part of our culture.  I miss it.

 

[AbdullahD]

Funny - that's the first thing that I thought.

Waiting until after joining likely simplifies the recruiting and BMQ/BMOQ processes as well.

So I am a transgender, Muslim, convert, who wishes to join the army so I can come out and get a sex change? And to top it off i am slightly misogynistic... oh dear... i need help lol

Do I have the right of it? I am confused lol

 

[Kirkhill]

So I am a transgender, Muslim, convert, who wishes to join the army so I can come out and get a sex change? And to top it off i am slightly misogynistic... oh dear... i need help lol

Do I have the right of it? I am confused lol

On the confusion front: Join the club. 

 

[mariomike]

Civility used to be part of our culture.  I miss it.

Are you hoping to find it on the internet?

( Present company excepted, of course.  )