The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Czech_pivo]

They are organized to be a military not just a institution, 15 brigades in 6 military regions. If we wanted efficacy we would drop down to two army, one air division, not to mention our bureaucracy is overly redundant and meant to keep people employed not be effective.

So basically if we cut the bloated brass, trim the GHQ numbers, amalgamate some units, close some of the lesser needed/used bases, that our current budget would allow us to increase our Armed Forces by 50% in numbers, easily afford 88+ F-35's, get all 15 CSC's, replace the subs, CP-140's, the Kingstons and a bunch of others things??

So, who I have to fire first to get the ball rolling? 

 

[daftandbarmy]

Can someone please explain how Spain, with about 15.5$ Billion USD in military spending and 120k in the Armed Forces can have an Aircraft Carrier, a comparable sized navy to ours, a larger Air Force by about 40%, a larger army and a 5,000 strong naval marine unit in the same pay packet.
I mean, they are looking at the F-35 for their carrier and quite possibly for their remaining 120 F18’s fighters.
Why the difference? Are we so top heavy in Brass as some are saying that large piles of cash are being sucked up needlessly?  Is it our massive size and small population that leads to such large discrepancies and inefficiencies?  Do we pay our soldiers that much more then they do that our bang for the buck is sucked up in payroll?

Spain is also broke, and one of the leading economic basket cases in Europe.... just sayin' 

 

[Czech_pivo]

Spain is also broke, and one of the leading economic basket cases in Europe.... just sayin' 

Very true - but another 4yrs of this gov’t and we’ll be neck and neck with them.

 

[Underway]

Can someone please explain how Spain, with about 15.5$ Billion USD in military spending and 120k in the Armed Forces can have an Aircraft Carrier, a comparable sized navy to ours, a larger Air Force by about 40%, a larger army and a 5,000 strong naval marine unit in the same pay packet.
I mean, they are looking at the F-35 for their carrier and quite possibly for their remaining 120 F18’s fighters.
Why the difference? Are we so top heavy in Brass as some are saying that large piles of cash are being sucked up needlessly?  Is it our massive size and small population that leads to such large discrepancies and inefficiencies?  Do we pay our soldiers that much more then they do that our bang for the buck is sucked up in payroll?

The CAF are the second highest paid military in the world considering all the benefits etc...  The cost of people in the CAF is very high.  Spain doesn't have those issues.  The infrastructure costs in Spain are also much lower given that the country is smaller, and doesn't need to spread bases around everywhere, and the fact the US pays for at least one of their large naval/air bases (Rota).  I don't see the US carrying the freight for Halifax and Shearwater combined.

Spain also does not spend very much to keep older equipment going.  We pay quite a bit to ensure our older equipment works.  For example my last NATO the Spanish OHP had a 30mm that they hadn't fired in 15 years.  Their new ships are cheaper to operate than our old ships, so maintenance costs are lower. Which leads me to my next point.  New ships (read CSC) even with the sticker price will be cheaper on a year over year basis than keeping our current ships going.  It's at the point where payments on the new car are less than the repairs/maintenance on the old car.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Can someone please explain how Spain, with about 15.5$ Billion USD in military spending and 120k in the Armed Forces can have an Aircraft Carrier, a comparable sized navy to ours, a larger Air Force by about 40%, a larger army and a 5,000 strong naval marine unit in the same pay packet.
I mean, they are looking at the F-35 for their carrier and quite possibly for their remaining 120 F18’s fighters.
Why the difference? Are we so top heavy in Brass as some are saying that large piles of cash are being sucked up needlessly?  Is it our massive size and small population that leads to such large discrepancies and inefficiencies?  Do we pay our soldiers that much more then they do that our bang for the buck is sucked up in payroll?

One area where they may save money is in wages/benefits. From '99-'03 I was stationed in Naples, Italy at AFSOUTH HQ and I worked with two Spanish Army WO's  and they received a fraction of the benefits that I did. Example, one of them was married and they received very little/no benefits to help them. Mind you, since then their benefits may have improved.

 

[Czech_pivo]

One area where they may save money is in wages/benefits. From '99-'03 I was stationed in Naples, Italy at AFSOUTH HQ and I worked with two Spanish Army WO's  and they received a fraction of the benefits that I did. Example, one of them was married and they received very little/no benefits to help them. Mind you, since then their benefits may have improved.

I had a sense that this was the case, coupled with a smaller country, these can add up to significantly higher costs, but really that much?

 

[jmt18325]

Very true - but another 4yrs of this gov’t and we’ll be neck and neck with them.

While I hate to derail this thread, that isn't even remotely true.  Our debt to GDP ratio is small and decreasing, unlike Spain.

 

[Czech_pivo]

While I hate to derail this thread, that isn't even remotely true.  Our debt to GDP ratio is small and decreasing, unlike Spain.

So you’re saying that we can afford to spend more on our military and pay our fair share?

 

[Czech_pivo]

While I hate to derail this thread, that isn't even remotely true.  Our debt to GDP ratio is small and decreasing, unlike Spain.

One major thing to remember is that Spain doesn’t have the concept of Provincial Gov’ts that take up debts the size of Ontario’s. Add in Ontario’s debt to the Feds, along with Quebec et al and then talk to me.

 

[jmt18325]

So you’re saying that we can afford to spend more on our military and pay our fair share?

I've always been a proponent of that, yeah.

 

[jmt18325]

One major thing to remember is that Spain doesn’t have the concept of Provincial Gov’ts that take up debts the size of Ontario’s. Add in Ontario’s debt to the Feds, along with Quebec et al and then talk to me.

I'd love to discuss this further - I just know I'll get in trouble for doing it here.

 

[Dale Denton]

Thread should be split into a discussion into the many differences in the defence realm between us and Spain. Interesting read so far.

 

[Spencer100]

Does Canada really have any other options? 

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/one-nation-may-have-no-choice-buy-f-35-stealth-fighter-84806

 

[tomahawk6]

Canada has a NORAD mission so IMO that dictates the type of aircraft and range. So that trims the options to twin engine with some type of stealth capability. It must be able to interoperate with the USAF . Maybe Rafale ?

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/watch-first-look-of-rafale-fighter-jet-for-iaf/videoshow/66604791.cms

 

[Sub_Guy]

Why twin engine?

 

[AlexanderM]

Canada has a NORAD mission so IMO that dictates the type of aircraft and range. So that trims the options to twin engine with some type of stealth capability. It must be able to interoperate with the USAF . Maybe Rafale ?

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/watch-first-look-of-rafale-fighter-jet-for-iaf/videoshow/66604791.cms

Rafale already withdrew, as they either could not interoperate to the level required with the US or it was too expensive to do so within the contract. I really like the Rafale but it's not going to happen.

 

[tomahawk6]

Maybe the F15X might fit the bill ?

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/07/30/boeings-new-f-15x-may-replace-an-aging-fleet-of-f-15cd-eagles/

 

[MilEME09]

Why twin engine?

Many argue that due to how vast and remote our arctic is, twin engine is better because if one engine fails they can still limp back to base, vs going down in the middle of no where

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Maybe the F15X might fit the bill ?

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/07/30/boeings-new-f-15x-may-replace-an-aging-fleet-of-f-15cd-eagles/

Except Boeing isn't offering that to Canada. They are offering the Super Hornet.

 

[CBH99]

I realize Boeing isn't "offering" the Super Hornet, but could Canada not request that it be offered?  If it was seriously being considered, in an alternative dimension, would Boeing really give up the chance to sell 88 planes to us if we wanted the new F15 instead of the updated F18?