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The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

MarkOttawa

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USN’s CNO wants to shake up naval combat aviation--crewed 6th gen fighter even? Compared to the US, UK or Australia it is striking how little Canadian GoFos say about various ways ahead, both technically and organizationally:

CNO Gilday: Navy Needs ‘Fundamental Change’ in How it Develops Fighters

A decade from now, the backbone of the Navy’s tactical air fleet will begin to retire with no clear successor in line yet.

Earlier this year, the service signaled the end of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet program and zeroed out the production line past 2021 to instead fund the Navy’s Next Generation Air Dominance program. The NGAD program office stood up earlier this year after a decade of stops and starts to develop a system or systems that will replace the weapons-carrying capacity of the Super Hornet, USNI News reported in August.

For Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Mike Gilday, the Navy needs to avoid repeating the procedural mistakes that led to a 20-year process for the F-35C Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter to make it into the Fleet…

“I am more cautious with sixth-gen TACAIR, only because I’ll tell you that if I’m thinking about how long it took to field the F-35,” he said.
“If we invested in next-generation TACAIR beyond [the fifth-generation F-35] capabilities, there also has to be a fundamental change in the development and the delivery of that aircraft or it’s not going to be worth the investment.”

Gilday was bullish about the future of unmanned aviation systems for the carrier air wing.

“There are very highly classified efforts going on – R&D with respect to next-generation air wing. There is a heavy unmanned focus on that. I am a big proponent of the unmanned,” he said…

“I’m not satisfied at the pace at which we’re moving,” Gilday said.
“Comparatively, if we talk about Navy’s efforts in unmanned under the sea, on the sea, and in the air, that we would give ourselves maybe, you know, a B-minus under the sea, a B-minus on the sea and probably a C-minus or perhaps worse in the air.”

Gilday cited the seven-year gap between the 2013 landing of the X-47B Unmanned Carrier Air Vehicle demonstrator (UCAS-D) aboard USS George H.W. Bush (CVN-77) at sea and the 2019 first flight of MQ-25A Stingray unmanned tanker program.

“The MQ-25 is a project that I am putting heat on to deliver. And then we have to deliver at scale,” he said.

Beyond that, there are still fundamental questions about the Navy’s follow-on to the Super Hornet that the service has yet to answer.

“Will we be doing air-to-air combat in 2045 with manned aircraft? I think that’s a big question,” he said.

“If we do go manned in sixth-gen, the development and delivery timeline has to be significantly better than what we’ve seen with fifth-gen.“
https://news.usni.org/2020/11/09/cno-gilday-navy-needs-fundamental-change-in-how-it-develops-fighters

Mark
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dimsum

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MarkOttawa said:
USN’s CNO wants to shake up naval combat aviation--crewed 6th gen fighter even? Compared to the US, UK or Australia it is striking how little Canadian GoFos say about various ways ahead, both technically and organizationally:

My complete WAG is because they don't want to say anything that may even hint at a preferred bidder for the Future Fighter project. 
 

SupersonicMax

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Dimsum said:
My complete WAG is because they don't want to say anything that may even hint at a preferred bidder for the Future Fighter project.

I think you give our system way too much credit!  I don’t think anyone is looking far enough to see a need for a 6th Gen platform.
 

MTShaw

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SupersonicMax said:
I think you give our system way too much credit!  I don’t think anyone is looking far enough to see a need for a 6th Gen platform.

Which is true. However, no one has any idea what a 6th generation platform is. I’d be happy if we got a adequate number of MQ-9Bs that can work with the resulting platform from FFCP. ANd if we stumbled on to a CP-140m replacement which could tie both of those platforms together, would we would have magically achieved 6th generation?

There are plenty of ways to screw that up. And every government around is equally incompetent.
 

LoboCanada

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Our "new" used former RAAF classic hornets are now entering the museum circuit. Maybe there was a clause in the contract to have access to the museum pieces.

Perhaps in a few years we'll be scavenging those for spare parts.


War Memorial welcomes RAAF Classic Hornet to collection
https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/strike-air-combat/7329-war-memorial-welcomes-raaf-classic-hornet-to-collection

Defence, in association with Boeing Defence Australia, today officially handed over F/A-18 Classic Hornet, A21-022, to the War Memorial’s Treloar Technology Centre in Canberra.

The F/A-18 Classic Hornet, A21-022, will join other significant exhibits in the collection, including “G for George” – a Lancaster bomber that belonged to No. 460 Squadron RAAF Bomber Command during World War II.

Minister for Defence Industry Melissa Price said it was important to retain significant objects in the memorial’s National Collection that reflect the Australian Defence Force’s proud service.

“This is an appropriate new home for F/A-18 Classic Hornet A21-022, which will be the first of two Classic Hornets to be honoured in such a way,” Minister Price said.
 

armrdsoul77

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Canadian Aviation and Space Museum has had a CF-18 since 2001.

https://ingeniumcanada.org/aviation/artifact/mcdonnell-douglas-cf-188b-cf-18b
 

MarkOttawa

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Saab plays Quebec card:

Saab offers two aerospace centres in Gripen E proposal for Canada’s Future Fighter

Saab is offering to open two new aerospace centres as part of its Gripen E proposal for Canada’s Future Fighter Capability Project.

The aerospace facilities, the Gripen Centre and the Aerospace Research & Development Centre, would be based in the greater Montreal region, the company announced at Aero Montreal’s International Aerospace Innovation Forum 2020 on 14 December.

Mission system software and hardware development, as well as integration, for the proposed Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) Gripen E would be done at the Gripen Centre.

The Aerospace Research & Development Centre would focus on a variety of aerospace technologies, including automation, artificial intelligence and “greening” technologies. That work may or may not be directly related to the Gripen E. Rather, the research and development would focus on next-generation aerospace technologies more generally.

Saab is also in talks with undisclosed local universities about partnerships related to the aerospace centres, it says.

Saab has only about 50 people working in Canada currently, across various businesses such as maritime traffic management and army training and simulation work. However, between the two aerospace centres, the company anticipates at least 3,000 people being directly employed.

The RCAF is looking to buy 88 advanced fighters to replace its fleet of Boeing CF-18 Hornets. Canada’s Department of National Defence estimates acquisition of the aircraft, related equipment and entry into service will cost C$15-19 billion ($11.8-14.9 billion).

A contract is scheduled to be awarded in 2022 after evaluation by the RCAF. The air force wants the first jets received as soon as 2025. The new fleet is expected to fly beyond 2060.

In addition to Saab, the RCAF received bids in July from Boeing, which is offering its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, and Lockheed Martin, which is offering F-35 Lightning II stealth fighters.

… Saab has proposed that Canada’s IMP Aerospace & Defence would handle in-country production of the Gripen E, and provide support over the lifetime of the fleet. The company says initial aircraft would be produced in Sweden to meet Ottawa’s goal of first fighter delivery in 2025. It is still evaluating how many aircraft could be made in Canada, but says it aims to “maximise” the number.

The rest of the Saab Gripen for Canada team would include CAE, which is to provide training and mission systems; Peraton Canada, which is to supply avionic and test equipment, as well as component maintenance, repair and overhaul, and material management; and GE Aviation, which is set to provide and sustain the fighters’ turbine engines.'
https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/saab-offers-two-aerospace-centres-in-gripen-e-proposal-for-canadas-future-fighter/141602.article

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YZT580

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would IMP put their assembly line in Halifax or elsewhere?  Would certainly nail down the liberal seats in N.S. if they did.
 

CBH99

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Aircraft selection aside...

I hate to be synacle (how on earth do you spell that word?)


But this is a company offering to do something in Canada that would create thousands of jobs.  The PM won't ever go for it.

Whether it's pipelines to BC and Alaska, the Tekk project in Alberta, or building LNG pipelines throughout southern Ontario & Quebec... every single opportunity to get onboard with a big project that would employ thousands of people per project has been squandered. 

Hopefully it'll be a wakeup call to the LPC, when all this Covid nonsense is over with...and nobody has a job to go back to, and therefore the government coffers won't start refilling themselves.  :eek:ff topic:



Off topic, I apologize.  I just don't think Saab realizes how absolutely little their offer to create thousands of jobs matters to this government.  :2c:
 

dimsum

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CBH99 said:
I hate to be synacle (how on earth do you spell that word?)

Cynical.

The jobs angle is because the project has a certain percentage of the bid award going towards Industrial Technological Benefits (ITBs), which translates to points on the overall bid.

One way to maximize those points (there's some sort of factor that I won't get into b/c it's frankly too complicated for me to explain right now) is to have tech jobs in Canada such as aircraft design and manufacturing.
 

PuckChaser

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Estimated 3,000 jobs that'll mostly disappear once all the aircraft are assembled (keeping in mind the first chunk will be completed in Sweden due to timelines) is pretty cute.

https://www.f35.com/global/participation/canada

According to the Statistics Canada model, approximately 50,000 jobs will be created in Canada through the selection of the F-35. To date, nearly 10,000 Canadian jobs have been created as a result of Canada’s partnership status in the F-35 global partnership program.

Canada has been an industry partner on the F-35 program for more than 15 years and has been offered nearly 200 projects in the Industrial Participation Plan.

110 Canadian companies have already contributed to the development and production of the F-35. Thus far, Canadian companies have been awarded high value contracts as part of the F-35 global supply chain amounting to $2 billion USD and approximately $120 million in capital investment for facility upgrades. Yet to be measured is the export opportunities already realized by small and medium-sized companies stemming from the expertise they have gained as an F-35 supplier. Being part of developing and producing the F-35 is without doubt a once in a generational experience for Canadian suppliers, innovators and aviators.

10,000 jobs that will last well beyond the one and done Gripen, 110 seperate companies instead of pork barreling Quebec. We'll probably pick the Quebec option.  :facepalm:
 

dimsum

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What's more, a bunch of the F-35 jobs have been there for years.  Boeing in Winnipeg makes parts for the wings, for example. 

If Canada doesn't select the F-35, will LM keep those jobs in Canada?
 

OldSolduer

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Dimsum said:
What's more, a bunch of the F-35 jobs have been there for years.  Boeing in Winnipeg makes parts for the wings, for example. 

If Canada doesn't select the F-35, will LM keep those jobs in Canada?

Being an interested observer, how much influence would the USA wield in this situation? For instance would the incoming VP of the USA pay a nice visit to our Dear Leader or perhaps the President of the USA calls JT and reminds the little twerp who his neighbour is?
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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PuckChaser said:
Estimated 3,000 jobs that'll mostly disappear once all the aircraft are assembled (keeping in mind the first chunk will be completed in Sweden due to timelines) is pretty cute.

https://www.f35.com/global/participation/canada

10,000 jobs that will last well beyond the one and done Gripen, 110 seperate companies instead of pork barreling Quebec. We'll probably pick the Quebec option.  :facepalm:

Always ready with anti-Quebec ignorant biases, are you.

Guess what: 75% of those 110 companies doing most of the work on Canadian participation in F-35 program are around Montreal. Know why? Because that is where 70 % of the Canadian aeronautical industry is located. Yes, Quebec is still the only place in Canada that builds complete helicopters and airplanes (Since Airbus took over production of the "C-Series" under their name, they have increased the number of employees and the production rate by 15% -still here at Mirabel).

P.S. I know about the BC company who bought the rights to the old Twin Otter/Buffalo/CL-215/415, but it has yet to make a single sale of a new one or build even a single one.

Edited to add: I forgot: Ontario also builds some planes: They are the Bombardier business jets. My apologies for forgetting them.
 

PuckChaser

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Maybe it's a bias, or maybe if we're going to use defense projects to create jobs we shouldn't always hand them to the province with the 3rd lowest unemployment rate Nationally. I'm sure the Maritimes, BC and Alberta who are all 2% of more worse off should get some federal help, instead of just trying to buy seats in the Commons.
 

dapaterson

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Given the massive federal dollars being funnelled to Bermuda/Bahanmas via the Irving shipyard, the Maritimes can't claim to be hard done by.
 

MilEME09

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dapaterson said:
Given the massive federal dollars being funnelled to Bermuda/Bahanmas via the Irving shipyard, the Maritimes can't claim to be hard done by.

Pretty sure this is why the Feds have issued so many gag orders over our shipbuilding program.

In all seriousness we should try and diversify if we can and encourage growth of other sectors. One off jet production probably is not the best way to do that. With the F35, we the high number of planes being built, the work on smaller elements would be spread out through the entire economy.
 

Drallib

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Would the F35 giving Canadians jobs go towards GDP or GNP? Are these Canadians living in Canada?

Also, selecting the Gripen E would allow Canadians to have information on the technology and develop possible future aircraft of our own, no? Also, more say in upgrades given we'll be the biggest SAAB customer flying the E model.

The more time passes, the more I'm accepting the idea of a CF-139 Gripen.
 

SeaKingTacco

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Oldgateboatdriver said:
Always ready with anti-Quebec ignorant biases, are you.

Guess what: 75% of those 110 companies doing most of the work on Canadian participation in F-35 program are around Montreal. Know why? Because that is where 70 % of the Canadian aeronautical industry is located. Yes, Quebec is still the only place in Canada that builds complete helicopters and airplanes (Since Airbus took over production of the "C-Series" under their name, they have increased the number of employees and the production rate by 15% -still here at Mirabel).

P.S. I know about the BC company who bought the rights to the old Twin Otter/Buffalo/CL-215/415, but it has yet to make a single sale of a new one or build even a single one.

Edited to add: I forgot: Ontario also builds some planes: They are the Bombardier business jets. My apologies for forgetting them.

Actually, Viking builds Twin Otters from scratch, in Victoria (components come from Calgary). Airbus builds helicopters in Fort Erie, ON. Just sayin...
 

dimsum

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Drallib said:
Would the F35 giving Canadians jobs go towards GDP or GNP? Are these Canadians living in Canada?

Also, selecting the Gripen E would allow Canadians to have information on the technology and develop possible future aircraft of our own, no?
Also, more say in upgrades given we'll be the biggest SAAB customer flying the E model.

The more time passes, the more I'm accepting the idea of a CF-139 Gripen.

What benefit aside from pride would that give us?  As we found out with the Avro Arrow, we don't have a big enough domestic market, and are we seriously going to try and compete with the international market with the likes of LM, Boeing, and Airbus?  Even in the commercial sector, we had a better chance with the Bombardier C-Series but ultimately ended up losing it to Airbus. 

In theory I like the idea, but we would bankrupt whatever company gets tapped to produce our own homegrown aircraft. 

I keep losing where I found it but there were discussion threads either here or reddit that said the contract with SAAB means no spares if the customer engages in offensive conflicts.  So if you want to go to OP MOBILE or IMPACT again?  Bye bye spares.
 
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