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The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

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PuckChaser said:
We might as well update the CF-86 and use that.

USAF already did that- the F100 Supersabre. The napalm laden, cluster bomb workhorse of the early part of the Vietnam conflict.

unfortunately, if there is to be a new fighter procurement under this government, I cannot see Trudeau changing the course of the ship away from the F-35. Too much of Quebec is tied up in that. Also, based on latest costs, the ceiling cap of $9B CAD means there will be far fewer than 65 aircraft acquired, so the door is edging ever closer to the more pragmatic decision which is- "at this cost, why have fighter jets at all". Politically, it may be more "progressive and a new way of thinking for Canadians" if this entire range of capability is deleted from inventory and financially, well, the deficit just got that much smaller.

The only way around that is s snap decision to buy used F18F  Super Hornets or used Typhoons from Germany. 

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whiskey601 said:
USAF already did that- the F100 Supersabre. The napalm laden, cluster bomb workhorse of the early part of the Vietnam conflict.

unfortunately, if there is to be a new fighter procurement under this government, I cannot see Trudeau changing the course of the ship away from the F-35. Too much of Quebec is tied up in that. Also, based on latest costs, the ceiling cap of $9B CAD means there will be far fewer than 65 aircraft acquired, so the door is edging ever closer to the more pragmatic decision which is- "at this cost, why have fighter jets at all". Politically, it may be more "progressive and a new way of thinking for Canadians" if this entire range of capability is deleted from inventory and financially, well, the deficit just got that much smaller.

The only way around that is s snap decision to buy used F18F  Super Hornets or used Typhoons from Germany. 

.     

It's a conversation that may happen, although the results may not be what Canadians really want.  If we decide to not buy fighters, than expect us to pull (get kicked out of NORAD) and the Americans to take over our air space. 

 

Colin Parkinson

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I would favour a F-15 over the SH, but I could easily see using buying them as the line is open ti 2017. Unless they plan on having a "competition" desgined to allow the F-35 to win, carry on as before and eat the lawsuit costs that will appear. 
 

FSTO

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RoyalDrew said:
It's a conversation that may happen, although the results may not be what Canadians really want.  If we decide to not buy fighters, than expect us to pull (get kicked out of NORAD) and the Americans to take over our air space.

I would hope that the DND Deputy Minister and CDS will have the ability to brief the new government of the errors of their ways. Also there are enough veteran Liberal MP's who (I would hope) curtail more of the silly Trudeau proposals.

I have no doubt that a majority of the Liberal leftish policies will be quietly shifted to the far right on the priority calendar. That has been their MO forever and I see no change in that policy.
 

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FSTO said:
I would hope that the DND Deputy Minister and CDS will have the ability to brief the new government of the errors of their ways. Also there are enough veteran Liberal MP's who (I would hope) curtail more of the silly Trudeau proposals.

I have no doubt that a majority of the Liberal leftish policies will be quietly shifted to the far right on the priority calendar. That has been their MO forever and I see no change in that policy.

I do think our NATO allies will lean on the young Dauphin as well. Much the same as Maggie did to Pierre the Ponce.
 

Altair

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FSTO said:
I would hope that the DND Deputy Minister and CDS will have the ability to brief the new government of the errors of their ways. Also there are enough veteran Liberal MP's who (I would hope) curtail more of the silly Trudeau proposals.

I have no doubt that a majority of the Liberal leftish policies will be quietly shifted to the far right on the priority calendar. That has been their MO forever and I see no change in that policy.
Andrew Leslie was on ctv last night defending the move to buy cheaper alternatives to the F35 and move the savings into the navy.

He might have just been being a good liberal soldier though.
 

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Good2Golf said:
Canada's pervious government

It certainly was not as im as it thought...

Hamish Seggie said:
I do think our NATO allies will lean on the young Dauphin as well. Much the same as Maggie did to Pierre the Ponce.

Regrettably, there is no more Maggie.
 

Altair

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Loachman said:
It certainly was not as im as it thought...

Regrettably, there is no more Maggie.
The Harper government let spending on the military drop well below 2 percent of the GDP.

Who was leaning on him?

Don't forsee any issues here.
 

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Altair said:
The Harper government let spending on the military drop well below 2 percent of the GDP.

Who was leaning on him?

Don't forsee any issues here.

Agreed. 1.3 percent GDP and falling. He had the nerve last night in his resignation speach to claim that his government was managing defence responsibly.


   
 

YZT580

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"Andrew Leslie was on ctv last night defending the move to buy cheaper alternatives to the F35 and move the savings into the navy."
You are looking at another EH101 type boondoggle.  Although, JT may start singing a different tune after his conversation with Obama winds up.  The U.S. needs all the cash they can gather from their allies to help with the F35 bills.
With the focus on peacekeeping and handing out parkas we won't need the F35 capabilities but they will buy a replacement.  My guess says it will be any aircraft that we can license-build in Montreal to provide cash to assist Bombardier out of their hole. 
 

Colin Parkinson

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They get sub-contracts but not airframes, unless they build a Hawk 2 as our primary fighter.  8)
 

YZT580

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Perhaps?  https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/lockheeds-enhanced-f-16v-makes-first-flight-418014/
 

SeaKingTacco

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Single engine.

Too big a deal has been made about the number of engines a fighter has.

Therefore, whatever we eventually buy will have two engines.
 

jmt18325

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SeaKingTacco said:
Single engine.

Too big a deal has been made about the number of engines a fighter has.

Therefore, whatever we eventually buy will have two engines.

I'm not so sure.  I'd put my money on the superhornet, but given enough in savings, this might very well be an option if the focus is on cost.
 

SeaKingTacco

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The biggest knock against the F35 from the commentariat (aside from price) was that single engine is "unsafe" for a fighter.

I doubt the Liberals actually much care what fighter they buy us, except:

1. It deliver exceptional industrial offsets
2. It have two engines
3. It not be the F35

You will note that any consideration about its operational effect are not even in the top 3. This is simply kabuki theatre to keep the USA from patrolling Canadian Airspace for us. Nothing more.
 

jmt18325

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SeaKingTacco said:
The biggest knock against the F35 from the commentariat (aside from price) was that single engine is "unsafe" for a fighter.

I doubt the Liberals actually much care what fighter they buy us, except:

1. It deliver exceptional industrial offsets
2. It have two engines
3. It not be the F35

You will note that any consideration about its operational effect are not even in the top 3. This is simply kabuki theatre to keep the USA from patrolling Canadian Airspace for us. Nothing more.

I'm actually impressed with Trudeau (someone I thought was an idiot at the beginning of the campaign).  I believe he'll hold an open competition as he says he will.  I wish he wouldn't leave out the F-35, but again, he said he will, so it'll happen.  I'm thinking, based on cost and effectiveness being balanced, the Super Hornet is a shoe in.
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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Well, if you are to have an open competition and eliminate the F-35 and any  other single engine plane (which eliminates the F-16, the Gripen NG and the Rafale), then why not just invite Boeing for its SuperHornet and E.J.G for their Eurofighter directly. They are the only ones left !!!  And both technologically from the 1990's.

But watch out: I can guarantee you that neither will build in Canada under licence nor will want to offset the industrial benefits (why would they want to when they can keep all that money at home and know that Canada will shortly become desperate because the 18's are aging quickly into retirement, so would have to relent on that).

I know that Canadians are generally ignorant of defence matters, but the "silent majority", which is constantly courted by politicians and are polled to death on all sort of subjects, seem to have at least some gut feelings about things that you just should not do in such matters, and I am pretty sure that any government would find that one such gut feeling is that Canadians instinctively know that we have to have some form of fighter aircraft capability at all time, even if they have been told (or sold) on the idea that the F-35 ain't it. 
 

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Those are good points, OGBD, and I'm sure they, and others for continuing with the F-35, will be made by political insiders, lobbyist, senior officials and generals (listed in what is, in my opinion, their order of importance). But, someone already convinced Prime Minister designate Trudeau to say, "I will cancel the F-35" and that some someone, and others, will tell the new prime minister that cancelling the F-=35 is a "good" and easy promise to keep because, "look at the EH-101, we cancelled it and nothing disastrous happened ~ sure we took some small hits, but they were like shopping car 'dings' in a supermarket parking lot, not Lac Megantic sized train-wrecks. DND can and will find ways to work around a "no F-35" scenario." My suspicion is that good politics not good policy will decide this issue.
 

jmt18325

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Oldgateboatdriver said:
Well, if you are to have an open competition and eliminate the F-35 and any  other single engine plane (which eliminates the F-16, the Gripen NG and the Rafale), then why not just invite Boeing for its SuperHornet and E.J.G for their Eurofighter directly. They are the only ones left !!!  And both technologically from the 1990's.

No one in Trudeau's team has claimed that dual engine is a must for the competition - that is just a guess from someone here.

But watch out: I can guarantee you that neither will build in Canada under licence nor will want to offset the industrial benefits (why would they want to when they can keep all that money at home and know that Canada will shortly become desperate because the 18's are aging quickly into retirement, so would have to relent on that).

That is one reason that I give the Rafale an outside chance of winning.

I know that Canadians are generally ignorant of defence matters, but the "silent majority", which is constantly courted by politicians and are polled to death on all sort of subjects, seem to have at least some gut feelings about things that you just should not do in such matters, and I am pretty sure that any government would find that one such gut feeling is that Canadians instinctively know that we have to have some form of fighter aircraft capability at all time, even if they have been told (or sold) on the idea that the F-35 ain't it.

The F-35 is political suicide unfortunately.  Even if it won a competition that would be so.  Even the Conservatives didn't but it (or much of anything else in the last 7 years).
 
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