The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
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This whole saga cannot possibly get any dumber...
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Having lived through a good portion of the MHP saga, I am daring the universe to top that with this project.
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SeaKingTacco said:
Viking Air is a Canadian aerospace company who own the type certificate for the CL215. How hard would it be to adapt that airframe to the air superiority role?
"Just because it shouldn't be done doesn't mean it won't be done."
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I like the way you think....
Have you considered a career at PSPC?
Have you considered a career at PSPC?
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jmt18325 said:
And from which manufacturer do we buy the Pilots and Techs?
We cannot produce and retain enough now.
We are also capped by PYs, so, what do we cut to free enough?
These questions have been raised, here, by a few of us.
Loachman said:
Definitely questions. I'm in favour of more frames for a simple reason. If you manage it right, 88 should give you 100% availability of the 48 active fighters on a day to day basis. Used frames make a lot of sense as it simplifies it all. It may not result in more aircraft overall in the squadrons, but it would mean that the entire squadron could be active (provided that there are actually enough pilots for even that on a day to day basis - there isn't right now from what I hear in this forum).
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If your maintainers cannot keep 8 aircraft serviceable with 14, they won't be able to make 8 with 20. Maintenance can only work on so many aircraft at once. They have a finite capacity. If you want more aircraft on the line, you need more techs.
MilEME09
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MCG said:
it also doesn't help when techs are being approached by private industry and offered much higher wages for their skills. Once met a avionics tech in Borden, after his QL5 he was leaving the CF to take a 6 figure salary at a private firm that recruited him.
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Oh, just give the powers-that-be a chance............SeaKingTacco said:
Once upon a time I thought nothing - repeat, nothing - would top the USAF tanker project for weapons-grade dumbity, but I hereby happily concede that I was just a tad premature in that judgment.
FSTO
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jmt18325 said:
A PLAN! A you freakin serious? This whole interim buy was a back of the napkin crayon drawing right from the start. Mainly because the liberals at the time were in 3rd place and thought they had a couple of elections to go before getting back in. Now they are caught in a web of their own making.
I would have more respect for our political "leaders" if they would just admit that sometimes they come up with a dumb arse plan and it should be shelved once reality hit them in the face.
This whole "dispute" is likely their way to delay things until after the next election.
FSTO
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jmt18325 said:
You are right, they were going to use the money "saved" by not purchasing the F35 to finance the NSP.
http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2448348-new-plan-for-a-strong-middle-class.html#document/p8
"We will make investing in the Royal Canadian Navy a top priority.
By purchasing more affordable alternatives to the F-35s, we will be able to invest
in strengthening our Navy, while also meeting the commitments that were made
as part of the National Shipbuilding and Procurement Strategy. Unlike Stephen
Harper, we will have the funds that we need to build promised icebreakers,
supply ships, arctic and offshore patrol ships, surface combatants, and other
resources required by the Navy.
These investments will ensure that the Royal Canadian Navy is able to operate as
a true blue-water maritime force, while also growing our economy and creating
jobs."
Why nobody in the opposition or media called out the Liberals on this whopper is beyond me.
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Meanwhile some in Canadian aerospace push back--now what about firms with F-35 contracts (or seeking them)?
Mark
Ottawa
Mark
Ottawa
Oldgateboatdriver
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Actually, It's even more of a whopper.
jmt is right: the interim purchase was never part of the platform. That's because the interim purchase was conceived after the election as a ruse to avoid the other promise - of holding a proper competition for the CF-18 replacement that would not include the F-35.
Breaking this later promise was necessary because they found out, after the election (but any person even remotely knowledgeable would have known before), that the imbecilic, ignorant and irrational statement of their leader that the F-35 doesn't work, and his indirect but equally Imbecilic/irrational/ignorant statement that the F-35 is too expensive, turned out to be false. The F-35 is not only perfectly capable, now, to fulfill the requirements of Canada, but is also able to do so at a price that is not much different than the price of any alternative airplane. Even better: if the F-35 was let in any proper competition, it would beat the other entries, likely cold.
But that wouldn't do: it would expose Trudeau as the ignorant person he is in matters of defence. And it would break a major promise (fair competition - no F-35).
So unilaterally, without consulting the actual expert in defence, i.e. the CDS and the Comd RCAF, they concocted (probably with the help of sympathetic civil servants in the department) the idea of "creating a crisis" as solution: Change the policy on fighter employment so as to create an otherwise non existent "gap", then claim the gap must be closed NOW! Close it with a sole-source purchase justified by the "urgency" and therefore with something other than F-35 - then use that whole kaflafla to claim that you can only hold the proper competition for replacement in a few years (i.e. after the next election). This last point is complete bull, as all the requirements for the replacement have been known for years, and a proper competition can be held right now (and could have been held a year ago) and the selection could be made within a year. But it would have to include the F-35 if the government doesn't want to be sued, and the F-35 would likely win both on capability and price, as it has done everywhere else.
Then Boeing comes up with this useless lawsuit against Bombardier (I say useless because Bombardier products do not even compete with Boeing's, and Bombardier was willing to enter into an agreement with Boeing agreeing to not compete with Boeing's larger models after the C-Series take off), and the Liberals are screwed.
Well they are screwed because they chose to play gutter politics with national defence. Everybody does it in Canada: Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Here the Liberals lost badly, by their own making. But the poor schmo who always loses is the guy/gal at the sharp end when his/her life is at stake.
BTW: Is it just me or has our "bad-ass" minister of defence all but disappeared from the face of the planet in the last eight months - after being in such prominence during the first year of the Trudeau government ???
P.S: 18 Super-hornets is insignificant to Boeing. It's the equivalent to the revenue of selling six Boeing 777 or 787, something Boeing can do in couple of weeks. The real cost to Boeing is in the profit margins: While Boeing claims "improper" subsidies for Bombardier, they certainly don't want to have to disclose that they, themselves, have been indirectly subsidized by the US government for years through inflated prices and, in particular R&D financing, of "military" planes as a way to keep the cost of development of new civilian airplanes down and improve competitiveness.
The world of aeronautical production is completely subsidized everywhere in the world. It's not a "level" playing field where everyone competes on competence/efficiency alone. In fact, no industry in the "free-market" economies is unsubsidized somehow these days. All corporations want the government to 'butt-out" when they are raking money hand over fist, then come crying if they don't get the subsidies they want or when things go sour. There's always a province, state or country out there willing to give them more of the taxpayer's money.
jmt is right: the interim purchase was never part of the platform. That's because the interim purchase was conceived after the election as a ruse to avoid the other promise - of holding a proper competition for the CF-18 replacement that would not include the F-35.
Breaking this later promise was necessary because they found out, after the election (but any person even remotely knowledgeable would have known before), that the imbecilic, ignorant and irrational statement of their leader that the F-35 doesn't work, and his indirect but equally Imbecilic/irrational/ignorant statement that the F-35 is too expensive, turned out to be false. The F-35 is not only perfectly capable, now, to fulfill the requirements of Canada, but is also able to do so at a price that is not much different than the price of any alternative airplane. Even better: if the F-35 was let in any proper competition, it would beat the other entries, likely cold.
But that wouldn't do: it would expose Trudeau as the ignorant person he is in matters of defence. And it would break a major promise (fair competition - no F-35).
So unilaterally, without consulting the actual expert in defence, i.e. the CDS and the Comd RCAF, they concocted (probably with the help of sympathetic civil servants in the department) the idea of "creating a crisis" as solution: Change the policy on fighter employment so as to create an otherwise non existent "gap", then claim the gap must be closed NOW! Close it with a sole-source purchase justified by the "urgency" and therefore with something other than F-35 - then use that whole kaflafla to claim that you can only hold the proper competition for replacement in a few years (i.e. after the next election). This last point is complete bull, as all the requirements for the replacement have been known for years, and a proper competition can be held right now (and could have been held a year ago) and the selection could be made within a year. But it would have to include the F-35 if the government doesn't want to be sued, and the F-35 would likely win both on capability and price, as it has done everywhere else.
Then Boeing comes up with this useless lawsuit against Bombardier (I say useless because Bombardier products do not even compete with Boeing's, and Bombardier was willing to enter into an agreement with Boeing agreeing to not compete with Boeing's larger models after the C-Series take off), and the Liberals are screwed.
Well they are screwed because they chose to play gutter politics with national defence. Everybody does it in Canada: Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Here the Liberals lost badly, by their own making. But the poor schmo who always loses is the guy/gal at the sharp end when his/her life is at stake.
BTW: Is it just me or has our "bad-ass" minister of defence all but disappeared from the face of the planet in the last eight months - after being in such prominence during the first year of the Trudeau government ???
P.S: 18 Super-hornets is insignificant to Boeing. It's the equivalent to the revenue of selling six Boeing 777 or 787, something Boeing can do in couple of weeks. The real cost to Boeing is in the profit margins: While Boeing claims "improper" subsidies for Bombardier, they certainly don't want to have to disclose that they, themselves, have been indirectly subsidized by the US government for years through inflated prices and, in particular R&D financing, of "military" planes as a way to keep the cost of development of new civilian airplanes down and improve competitiveness.
The world of aeronautical production is completely subsidized everywhere in the world. It's not a "level" playing field where everyone competes on competence/efficiency alone. In fact, no industry in the "free-market" economies is unsubsidized somehow these days. All corporations want the government to 'butt-out" when they are raking money hand over fist, then come crying if they don't get the subsidies they want or when things go sour. There's always a province, state or country out there willing to give them more of the taxpayer's money.
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QFTFT.
