The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Colin Parkinson]

A son is not his father.

I suspect the father had more control over the party than the son does, the son will go along with what the powerbrokers of the party want.

 

[Loachman]

A son is not his father.

Nor completely opposite.

 

[FSTO]

A son is not his father.

That's because Fidel is his father!

 

[MarkOttawa]

"Interim" fighter tick-tock--meanwhile LockMart says F-35A could do the job:

Questions about fighter replacement loom large as Boeing benefits plan arrives
'The clock is ticking mighty fast,' says defence analyst about plan to buy interim jet fighters by 2019
By Murray Brewster

A proposal outlining the industrial benefits Boeing is prepared to deliver to Canadian companies in exchange for a sole-source interim fighter jet contract will land on desks at Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada on Wednesday.

The pitch is being made even though the Liberal government has suspended discussions with the U.S. aerospace giant over a separate trade complaint and is reviewing the military purchase, which Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan has claimed is urgent.

The proposal deadline renews concerns about the Liberal government's plan to replace the air force's aging fleet of CF-18s on both an interim basis and a long-term plan.

Buying 18 advanced Super Hornet fighters was described as necessary last fall in order for the air force to meet all of its obligations under both Norad and NATO simultaneously.

    Ottawa reconsiders Boeing purchase over Bombardier accusations
    Sajjan blasts Boeing over trade spat with Bombardier

The government told Boeing last fall that it wanted delivery of the first jet by 2019.

"If that is the case, the clock is ticking mighty fast," said Dave Perry, a Canadian Global Affairs Institute analyst who tracks defence procurements.​

The government intended to purchase the Super Hornets as a stopgap until it could organize a full-blown competition to buy 88 advanced jet fighters on a permanent basis.

Perry said the falling out with Boeing has broader implications than just the interim purchase.

"I cannot see how this is not negatively impacting progress on the competition," he said...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/super-hornet-purchase-1.4235916

Mark
Ottawa

 

[PuckChaser]

Further to Murray Brewster's article, Lockheed Martin has delivered an official proposal to provide 18 F-35As as the interim fighter, and they did it around the time that Boeing had to deliver their proposal. Unfortunately the MSM hasn't caught up yet, as this places the Liberals in an absolute political nightmare of their own creation. If LM loses, they can challenge the procedure in court and likely drag first delivery of any Super Hornet past the 2019 (key year, its an election year and exactly why the Liberals chose it). The Liberals have already campaigned on not buying the F-35, so if the LM proposal is better value then they have to go back hat in hand reneging on a key election promise. If they do nothing and punt the decision until after 2019, they leave the RCAF in a "capability gap" that they created to justify the SH "interim" (read: sole source) purchase.

 

[dimsum]

Further to Murray Brewster's article, Lockheed Martin has delivered an official proposal to provide 18 F-35As as the interim fighter, and they did it around the time that Boeing had to deliver their proposal. Unfortunately the MSM hasn't caught up yet, as this places the Liberals in an absolute political nightmare of their own creation. If LM loses, they can challenge the procedure in court and likely drag first delivery of any Super Hornet past the 2019 (key year, its an election year and exactly why the Liberals chose it). The Liberals have already campaigned on not buying the F-35, so if the LM proposal is better value then they have to go back hat in hand reneging on a key election promise. If they do nothing and punt the decision until after 2019, they leave the RCAF in a "capability gap" that they created to justify the SH "interim" (read: sole source) purchase.

So...obviously COA 3 will be picked, the "capability gap" will happen and the Liberals can say "see - we told you so!"  >

 

[PuckChaser]

The CFO of DND knows how much 18 Super Hornets will cost us, but can't say anything because there's no decision made. So much for open and transparent, the public should know the cost (remember the junk "full life cycle cost" the Liberals wants for the F-35 from the Tories) before a decision is made.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/feds-know-cost-of-interim-super-hornets-but-won-t-say-1.3570581

The public estimates in the article peg acquisition for just the aircraft at $111M CAD each, with several billion to pay for maintaince/etc. That basically eats the entire $9B CAD designated for the CF-188 replacement project, to buy 18 aircraft.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Actually the original $9B was over-all initial acquisition costs only, not in-service costs--see for those:

...
Total personnel, operating, and maintenance costs 16,140
Total 20-year costs 25,120
http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/english/parl_oag_201204_02_e_36466.html#ex6

Mark
Ottawa

 

[dapaterson]

CFO knows what has been estimated.  Until all the dirty work has been done he does not know what the actual will be.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Good grief for this big linkage hint--sure looks like Liberals are trying to find way out of stupid "interim" fighter decision-not buying 18 Boeing SuperHornets will put no NAFTA pressure on US:

Interim fighter jet purchase remains in limbo as Liberals deal with NAFTA talks
No timeline on a decision for stopgap to replace CF-18s in wake of Boeing lawsuit, says Carla Qualtrough
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/carla-qualtrough-cf-18s-boeing-1.4272575

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

Boeing still playing hardball:

Boeing rejects Ottawa’s call to drop Bombardier trade complaint

Boeing Co. is refusing to back down from its trade complaint against Bombardier Inc., warning the federal government that Canada's aerospace industry will be one of the main victims if the U.S.-based giant is frozen out of future military contracts.

In an interview from his company's offices in Ottawa, Boeing International president Marc Allen said the priority is fighting back against illegal subsidies and ensuring the global aerospace industry operates by a clear and common set of rules.

"We recognize the Canadian government might be upset with us. We don't intend to upset anybody, but we plainly have to do what we believe is right," Mr. Allen said. "If we don't have a [level playing field], we all lose."

He added the company is willing to live with the consequences of its trade complaint, including any impact on Canada's planned purchase of 18 Super Hornet fighter jets manufactured by the U.S.-based manufacturer.

Federal officials refused to comment on the dispute with Boeing last week. Bombardier has publicly rejected allegations of dumping or illegal subsidies and is fighting the matter in front of the ITC.

In mid-May, Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland responded to the trade complaint by announcing a review of all military procurements related to Boeing.

"Our government will defend the interests of Bombardier, the Canadian aerospace industry and our aerospace workers," she said.

However, Mr. Allen said the federal government should not forget that Boeing does $4-billion a year of business in Canada, raising the stakes in the public battle.

"If Canada kicks Boeing out, I think that will be deeply unfortunate for us both. It would be a deeply unfortunate outcome," he said...
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/boeing-rejects-ottawas-call-to-drop-bombardier-complaint/article36161663/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[CBH99]

Honestly, I hate to say it at the risk of sounding non-patriotic...or pessimistic...

BUT...I don't really blame Boeing.

18 Super Hornets that may have been bought, possibly, at some point - is pretty much water off the duck's back.  It doesn't affect their current orders with the US Navy, and those orders just keep pouring in every single fiscal year.  Not to mention recent sales to Kuwait & other M/E customers.

So the threat of us possibly not potentially buying a whopping 18 of them??  Not much of a risk to Boeing's business plans.

**6 to 8 months ago, this idea wasn't even on the table anyway.  So why would Boeing really care?**


That being said, Bombardier is a heavily subsidized company that - like Irving - does nothing to earn itself a step up. 

They had YEARS to modify one of their existing aircraft to meet the SAR Replacement - add a rear ramp, sensors & avionics, modify parts of a design to get it to fly faster/slower, etc etc.  Did they?  Nope.  Didn't even try, knowing full well there was a project coming down the pipe for just that kind of aircraft for YEARS. 

And that is just one example of many we can all think of.

Earn your bailouts.

 

[Loachman]

I'd like to thank Boeing for not caving.

They've likely saved this Country from a grievous political error.

 

[McG]

I'd like to thank Boeing for not caving.

They've likely saved this Country from a grievous political error.

Is that the one where we buy an interim fighter, or where the taxpayers forever finance a private company?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Is that the one where we buy an interim fighter, or where the taxpayers forever finance a private company?

Yes. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Had the deal been for 40+ fighters, Boeing might be singing a different tune, but not for 18 and without a firm contract.

 

[jmt18325]

Apparently, we're now looking at used F-18s, according to the Globe.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Good flipping political grief--and leaking:

Ottawa seeks second-hand jets from Australia amid Boeing, Bombardier dispute

The Canadian government is looking into buying second-hand fighter jets in Australia – instead of a new fleet of 18 Super Hornets – as it tries to force Boeing Co. to drop its trade dispute against Bombardier Inc., sources said.

Federal officials said the government is refusing to sign a planned multibillion-dollar contract for Super Hornets as long as Boeing pursues its complaint against Bombardier at the International Trade Commission in the United States.

A final decision to pull the plug on the Super Hornet contract has not been made, but tensions with Boeing are quickly escalating and the government is looking at all options to increase the pressure on the firm, the officials said.

A Canadian delegation travelled to Australia last month to see whether second-hand F/A-18 fighter jets, which are being placed on the market by the country's military, could fit Canada's needs for an "interim" fleet.

In addition, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau called Eric Greitens, the Governor of Missouri, where Boeing's Super Hornets are assembled, to highlight the billions of dollars and thousands of jobs that are now in play...
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-seeks-second-hand-jets-from-australia-amid-boeing-bombardier-dispute/article36178184/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[PuckChaser]

Old hornets is a far better option, but still allows replacement to get punted by 2 successive governments. Should also demonstrate that our procurement is so dumb that there's never a margin for losses of aircraft/trucks to replace them mid-life.

 

[Loachman]

Just admit to the stupidity of the election promise and order F35s FFS.

It's not like this is the first stupid election promise to be broken.