The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Good2Golf]

For the most part the GoC has been fine with that for years, as the ‘splash zone’ has been fairly unpopulated.

What about Premier Smith’s take on that? Dirtying the oilfield for centuries… #peakputin

*Still doesn’t make Canada any less of an American buffer zone.

 

[FJAG]

For the most part the GoC has been fine with that for years, as the ‘splash zone’ has been fairly unpopulated.

Landing in any populated area of Canada will cause significant American casualties.

Realistically, geography dictates that it can't be any other way. There are times when it makes zero sense to yell at clouds.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Stupid question here for the flyers:

How fast could Canada acquire, say, a dozen Grippen from Sweden, in a deal where we would be able to sell them back to the Swedish Air Force at a discount?

We are about to get our first F-35 and we have "pre-ordered" the second batch of them. So what if we also got - now - that dozen Grippen and publicly said we want to check them against one another for five or six years before getting more of either?

Can you imagine the people fuming in Washington? We are not talking about a "head to head" competition leading to a decision here. We are talking about running about a dozen of each to compare them in actual, long term use. All the while, we could use it as bargaining chips, with nothing lost whatever the final decision.

 

[dapaterson]

Stupid question here for the flyers:

How fast could Canada acquire, say, a dozen Grippen from Sweden, in a deal where we would be able to sell them back to the Swedish Air Force at a discount?

We are about to get our first F-35 and we have "pre-ordered" the second batch of them. So what if we also got - now - that dozen Grippen and publicly said we want to check them against one another for five or six years before getting more of either?

Can you imagine the people fuming in Washington? We are not talking about a "head to head" competition leading to a decision here. We are talking about running about a dozen of each to compare them in actual, long term use. All the while, we could use it as bargaining chips, with nothing lost whatever the final decision.

Purchase, then pivot and donate to Ukraine.

 

[Good2Golf]

Stupid question here for the flyers:

How fast could Canada acquire, say, a dozen Grippen from Sweden, in a deal where we would be able to sell them back to the Swedish Air Force at a discount?

We are about to get our first F-35 and we have "pre-ordered" the second batch of them. So what if we also got - now - that dozen Grippen and publicly said we want to check them against one another for five or six years before getting more of either?

Can you imagine the people fuming in Washington? We are not talking about a "head to head" competition leading to a decision here. We are talking about running about a dozen of each to compare them in actual, long term use. All the while, we could use it as bargaining chips, with nothing lost whatever the final decision.

Not a stupid question, OGBD. @SupersonicMax amingst best to comment here, but policy/higher level-wise, it depends on how the IC, IOC and FOC are defined (initial capability, initial operational capability and final operational capability) as well as type conversion and operational training capabilities, which I’m assuming SWE would have the SvF (Svenska Flygvapnet) support RCAF pilot and technician conversion and op training. Realistically, the timeframe would be years, not months, but previous RCAF efforts have seen significant new (to the RCAF) capabilities put into operational service into a theatre of operations in months (9-10 months) so not impossible to be under a year. Other factor is the manning level of the fighter force. I know it’s thin and just establishing the F-35 training cadre is a significant effort for the force.

 

[DBNSG]

RCAF not having F35s today is a RCAF own goal. Prior to the 2015 election the less than stellar RCAF staff work to justify the F35 was so poorly done that the government of the day which want a to buy them could not do it, lacking the substantiation from the RCAF beyond "yo, we want it, trust us".

Those currently on order will not be based out of Canada in the near term because the RCAF has ignored security for too long, and catching up on the physical, information and personnel security deficit will take time measured in multiple years.

It's convenient to blame politicians. It's accurate to point at the seniors of the RCAF.

Thanks for the insight but its the advisors to the politicians I was referring to as deep Ottawa. Gerry Butts is an idiot that tried to scrub the internet about the 80/70 rule for Fleet management. He is a deeply left wing advisor that happened to attend McGill with a former P.M.'s kid. His three older brothers are far more successful in life and just happened to get graduate or doctorates at Dalhousie. I went to University with two of them. Butts mirrors the views of a former Paul Martin advisor by the name of David Herle trying to justify miserly Canadian defence spending as "rational" due to overwhelming American power. I can understand senior RCAF bonking purchase decisions as when in their careers have they ever had the opportunity let alone obligation to buy anything.

 

[FJAG]

Gerry Butts is an idiot that tried to scrub the internet about the 80/70 rule for Fleet management.

???

Never heard of this. Would like to know more about both the rule and the scrubbing.

 

[Maxman1]

How fast could Canada acquire, say, a dozen Grippen from Sweden

About five to ten years. They are struggling to build any of them and have a long backlog.

Can you imagine the people fuming in Washington?

It's a "cut off your nose to spite your face" situation.

More importantly, what does that even accomplish? We have proven it is inferior to the F-35, twice, as has every other country that evaluated the Gripen against the F-35. And by the time we would take delivery, Trump will be long out of office and probably dead, nobody in the US is going to care if we don't buy more F-35s.

 

[Rainbow1910]

About five to ten years. They are struggling to build any of them and have a long backlog.

It's a "cut off your nose to spite your face" situation.

More importantly, what does that even accomplish? We have proven it is inferior to the F-35, twice, as has every other country that evaluated the Gripen against the F-35. And by the time we would take delivery, Trump will be long out of office and probably dead, nobody in the US is going to care if we don't buy more F-35s.

The rabid nationalist types also need to realize that fundamentally, no fighter on Earth is safe from US interference if they decide that Canada is going to be punished for some dubious reason. The US can directly interfere with the F-35 to cut off updates, software support, spare parts and more however, this can also be done for the majority of other fighters internationally. So many have ITAR compliant equipment or software present which can be used as levers but even outside of this, the US can simply threaten the supplying nation with tariffs or whatever else to cut Canada off. We've seen how Europe as a whole has responded to Trump's tariffs previously and how they all shriveled away when Canada was put on the chopping block (even Britain), I don't expect any European or other nation to stick their necks out to Canada over selling less than 100 fighter aircraft.

If we're going to be screwed on this issue, I'd rather have the most capable aircraft that has the most bang for our buck. Such a move will spell the end of the JSF program regardless, as it will show that the US cannot be trusted if it is willing to undermine the nation who they share an organization like NORAD with on their own borders. Fighters are the least of our concerns for the CAF if the US decides it will cut off support to us, given how much we are reliant on them for many, many items across the force.