"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[COBRA-6]

Oh, by the way, you're the first I've heard of calling the TV "absolute garbage".  Some have said "not bad" or "could be better", but all agree: its sufficient for what's needed.

Do a search for Tac Vests... this had been discussed before extensively...

 

[Gunnar]

Speaking as a civilian, I think the best TV is one with cable.  However, any TV in the field is going to be heavy, and I don't know if there are current bushes over in the sandbox to plug one into.... :dontpanic:

 

[buzgo]

I think that the Army (CF?) needs to modernize the way we think about things. Test a bunch of gear, come up with a list of stuff that is acceptable and if someone wants to buy it, they are good to go and can do that without running afoul of the c of c.

If we issued everyone Hanwag boots, RAID packs and a RAV, then they would probably all want to get Oakley boots, Eagle packs and 1982 pattern webbing or something! There will always be something 'better' than what we're issued. Although in this situation I agree with the guys on the ground, and the guys like KevinB and Big Red. The issue stuff has a long way to go to be considered 'good kit.'

What troubles me most of all is MND's lack of knowledge about 5 years of UCRs, and the usual CF 'develop in a vacuum' philosophy that CTS is operating on.

 

[vonGarvin]

Are "blast effects" not "kinetic attacks"??  Anything moving at high velocity toward you is using kinetic energy to try to kill you, correct?  The turrets would then be effective against suicide bombing type attacks, right?

No, they are quite different.  Take a LAV III for example.  It can stop calibre "x" fired from "y" metres.  As for blast, remember it can bypass armour, taking the path of least resistance.  Remember that bullets are kinetic energy projectiles.  If I am in a LAV III turret, for example, and a bomb goes off next to the vehicle.  Say it's an AT mine, so it goes off underneath.  Suppose that the hull integrity isn't compromised, so fine.  Having said that, the shock wave of the blast would go around the vehicle and slam into my ears: overpressure, underpressure and the like.

 

[vonGarvin]

May I suggest that the time and energy is best put forth into rational arguments for improving the kit in question, coupled with detailed explanations of what would be recommended - not just by brand name, but by individual functional characteristic.  Build a document and interested obeservers in the right places may be able to forward your information to the right people - insults and rhetoric do not achieve that.
Mike

The sober thought.  Thank you.

 

[vonGarvin]

OK, just outta curiosity, what exactly is wrong with the TV as issued?

The only complaint I've seen that really rings home is mag capacity - and yes, from talking to those who have seen the elephant, it seems that daily carry of 10-15 C7 mags is the norm these days. OK, so it could use more mag pouches.

One can carry 10 mags with the TV as issued.  There is a magazine slot insert that can be put into a side pouch.

But is that it?

I doubt it.  As I've said, it may not be perfect, but in my professional opinion, it is very good in its performing what it's needed to do: give an infantryman (not a SOF soldier or anything like that) enough carriage to take with him/her into battle for a 24 hour period, or so.  There are add-on pouches, and if you wish to carry more, there is the "day pack", or whatever it's called.  And it has add on pouches as well.

It just strikes me that if the aftermarket is selling the same design, but with MOLLE so you can reconfigure the pouches, that the basic design really isn't all that horrible. Conversely, it seems that the substitution of MOLLE pouches for static sewn-on pouches isn't that big of a deal, and could be incorporated into a future design revision.

Yes, maybe that could be done.  The rifle has evolved since we bought it, so why not the TV?  Having said that, is it necessary?  Desirable, maybe, but necessary?

This looks to me like a perfect case for a design iteration process. CTS comes up with a piece of kit, the soldiers try it out, "whoops, not enough mag pouches" and then re-issue with MOLLE (etc) instead of the sewn-on pouches. Lather, rinse, repeat.

"repeat.  Always repeat" .  With any kit procurement, I don't think there is an end state, but rather a continuing process whereby the kit improves over time as the needs dictate.

Kit is like plans - no first version, no matter how well researched, is going to be perfect. So rapid feedback and incremental redesign to meet the needs of the pointy end needs to be part of the process.

Well said.  LFTEU does incorporate an exhaustive scientfic process to trial "stuff", from gloves and boots to weapons and the like.  There is extensive user feedback, but being human, they don't always get it right.  They do most of the time, but not always.  I think that the TV was a success story, however.

 

[DG-41]

Given that you like the TV as issued, this question wasn't aimed at you; rather, at those who think the TV is garbage.

But I can note that:

One can carry 10 mags with the TV as issued.  There is a magazine slot insert that can be put into a side pouch.

At the cost of losing either the C9 box or the 2qt canteen that normally rides there....

I've got the canteen in there with an aftermarket hydration adaptor that turns this into a Camelback - and hydration, especially when laden up with all the extra stuff (particularly armour) that we wear these days, is very very important. I wouldn't want to give up that water to carry mags in that pouch.

There are add-on pouches, and if you wish to carry more, there is the "day pack", or whatever it's called.  And it has add on pouches as well.

I've yet to see any add-on mag pouches for the issue TV - where would they fit? The only provision for extra pouches is on the back, and I hope you aren't advocating carrying ready ammo on one's back....

Don't get me started on the "day pack" either....

Yes, maybe that could be done.  The rifle has evolved since we bought it, so why not the TV?  Having said that, is it necessary?  Desirable, maybe, but necessary?

Aren't those one and the same? Isn't anything "desirable" by the guys on the pointy end an extension of combat capacity? Especially when they are already voting with that most precious of votes, their wallets?

Have you seen how much some of this Gucci stuff costs? When the boys are spending their Queen's Coin on upgraded personal military kit, that speaks pretty strongly to me about how they feel about the extra capability it adds. All the soldiers I've ever known have been a pretty thrifty bunch.

"repeat.  Always repeat" Cheesy.  With any kit procurement, I don't think there is an end state, but rather a continuing process whereby the kit improves over time as the needs dictate.

I agree - and it would seem that the needs of the pointy end are dictating that it may be time to add capability to the issue TV.

It works just fine for **my** needs - but to date, I haven't had a need to carry more than three mags of ammunition. I certainly would NOT, however, extrapolate that into claiming that the issue TV has a 20% overcapacity in magazine stowage.

Well said.  LFTEU does incorporate an exhaustive scientific process to trial "stuff", from gloves and boots to weapons and the like.  There is extensive user feedback, but being human, they don't always get it right.  They do most of the time, but not always.

Nobody ever will. It's like developing computer software: you do the best you can, you be as rigorous and professional as lies within your capability, and as soon as the software is released into the wild, a ton of bugs will show up as people actually use the stuff.

Does that mean the programmers are idiots, or incompetent, or negligent? No, not at all - as long as they fix the bugs and release the fixes in a timely manner.

The danger sign is when your programmers start claiming that bugs aren't serious, or that the users aren't using it properly, or otherwise rationalize away the need to fix bugs. The End User Is Always Right.

That's a lot easier to do in software, where you just shunt some electrons around, than in the material world - them protons and neutrons are a bitch. But any project that doesn't have baked into it a user-feedback and rapid improvement process is doing everybody a disservice.

I think that the TV was a success story, however.

Overall, I tend to agree with you - but one can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by failing to adapt to changing circumstances, and it sounds like the TV has a set of changing circumstances to deal with here. Why be so hostile to that?

DG

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

You know I really don't care what the troops did in WW1 or 2 or Korea or Bosnia for that matter.  The kit out there is better because it is more comfortable,holds more of everything, and is modular.  Did those in previous engagements have the money and resources to get something more suitable and quickly?  I don't think so.  These days you can get a chest rig in tan, olive drab, CADPAT in weeks.  As long as we all look like we are on the same team who cares. I'd hate to be ambushed in an alley cut off from my platoon with no immediate support and only 5 mags a man to hold them off because that's all I could carry.  Or I carry ten mags and no C9 or C6 or grenades etc because there is no room.

 

[rifleman]

You know I really don't care what the troops did in WW1 or 2 or Korea or Bosnia for that matter.  The kit out there is better because it is more comfortable,holds more of everything, and is modular.  Did those in previous engagements have the money and resources to get something more suitable and quickly?  I don't think so.  These days you can get a chest rig in tan, olive drab, CADPAT in weeks.  As long as we all look like we are on the same team who cares. I'd hate to be ambushed in an alley cut off from my platoon with no immediate support and only 5 mags a man to hold them off because that's all I could carry.  Or I carry ten mags and no C9 or C6 or grenades etc because there is no room.

I agree that the stuff we have now is more comfortable, however with all the neat little pockets it's hard to get at, and all the neat pouches you can have, You've got to tape it up so it doesn't fall off or rattle around Give me sewn on pouches anyday. Even with the old webbing pouches I liked keeping the C2 pouch around for extra mags.

As aside , I'd hate being ambushed cut off with even 10 mags when I needed 11 but when is enough?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

True you can get into some circular logic as to whats enough's enough.  That said the troops have 10 mags and 4 mag pouches.

 

[rifleman]

Better than 4 mags and a bandolier

 

[Recce41]

VonG
I have to say it. It's the Look cool thing.  If someone wants to pay 500-1000$ on a vest you may wear for 6 months OK. But I have better things to do with my money. I have pockets, extra pouches that will do the same thing. We both remember the old 54/64 Pat webbing, it was good then as now. The Brits still use it in the Jungle. Its easy to fix and to add to.
Too many movie watchers. I don't allow any of my soldiers to wear any none Canadian Kit. Maybe gloves, if blk.
As Stated, YES I'm a prick. What about it.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

VonG
I have to say it. It's the Look cool thing.  If someone wants to pay 500-1000$ on a vest you may wear for 6 months OK. But I have better things to do with my money. I have pockets, extra pouches that will do the same thing. We both remember the old 54/64 Pat webbing, it was good then as now. The Brits still use it in the Jungle. Its easy to fix and to add to.
Too many movie watchers. I don't allow any of my soldiers to wear any none Canadian Kit. Maybe gloves, if blk.
As Stated, YES I'm a prick. What about it.

This is the same 64 Pattern webbing THAT DIDN'T HAVE AMMUNITION POUCHES because it was expected a soldier could carry a full basic load in his shirt pockets?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Recce41 you will allow different gloves.  Why is that?  I don't see how you can allow non-issue gloves but not non-issue chest rigs or boots.  Some may think its LCF then so be it.  Others feel that given the amount of kit they must take to get the job done now feel otherwise.  Either all or none.  Its called evolution and just because it doesn't come from the top don't dismiss it.

 

[vonGarvin]

At the cost of losing either the C9 box or the 2qt canteen that normally rides there....
I've got the canteen in there with an aftermarket hydration adaptor that turns this into a Camelback - and hydration, especially when laden up with all the extra stuff (particularly armour) that we wear these days, is very very important. I wouldn't want to give up that water to carry mags in that pouch.
I've yet to see any add-on mag pouches for the issue TV - where would they fit? The only provision for extra pouches is on the back, and I hope you aren't advocating carrying ready ammo on one's back....

No, certainly not; however, perhaps that extra C9 belt box could be there?  I dunno.  But personal ammo (less the bandoleer, maybe) should be easily accessible.  It all depends on the situation, naturally.  Maybe extra water could be there?  Again, situation depends, and you're absolutely right: water, and lots of it, is a must.

Don't get me started on the "day pack" either....

I won't

Aren't those one and the same? Isn't anything "desirable" by the guys on the pointy end an extension of combat capacity? Especially when they are already voting with that most precious of votes, their wallets?

No, desirable and needed are two different things.  The only example I can think of is sex (desirable) and air (needed).  And I mean this in a serious way.  You can get by without the desirable things, but you cannot get by without the needed things.  Sorta like the difference between vital ground and key terrain, I suppose.

Overall, I tend to agree with you - but one can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by failing to adapt to changing circumstances, and it sounds like the TV has a set of changing circumstances to deal with here. Why be so hostile to that?

I'm not hostile to change: the opposite is quite true.  Change can be a good thing; however, it must be for the better, and it cannot be for the sake of change itself.  The TV, as it is, is good, In my professional opinion.  
The thing I'm hostile to is the slagging "You don't agree with me, therefore you are inexperienced/a desk jockey/a parade ground soldier", whatever.  I admit, I've handled it poorly.  Mea culpa.

Garvin out

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"But personal ammo (less the bandoleer, maybe) should be easily accessible."
Its not easy to get to.  The pouches are too high on the chest.

 

[vonGarvin]

"But personal ammo (less the bandoleer, maybe) should be easily accessible."
Its not easy to get to.  The pouches are too high on the chest.

It can be adjusted, though perhaps not enough.  And there are different sizes.  If that doesn't remedy it, then submit a UCR stating so
(And remember: "it inhales fecal matter through a straw" doesn't cut it") 
In my experience, the pouches are fine like they are on my TV.  I can reach them when prone and I can reach them when standing (such as in a turret even, though that isn't exactly that comfortable)


As an aside, someone earlier mentioned "The SOF doesn't use the TV, why should we?"  An analogy occured to me earlier tonight.  Consider police units.  The SWAT teams (ERT?  SERT?) have black uniforms, helmets, SMGs, various types of rigging, etc, but the cop on the beat has a completely different set of gear.  Is it funding?  Certainly not.  It's all about function.  The cop on the beat, though carrying a weapon because he/she may have to use it, has more "mundane" tasks with which to contend (on a regular basis, that is).  Having said that, the cop on the beat has to be ready for anything, such as a domestic dispute gone bad as an example.

The main point is functionality.  If you are in a mech platoon, for example, there are close to 40 guys with you.  Normally you operate more or less in the same grid square (or even closer in urban areas).  Your LAV is close by (complete with boiling vessal!), and you will normally be away from the LAV for shorter (relatively speaking) periods of time.  You don't need as much stuff on you to survive.

If you are on a long range recce patrol, well, the situation is completely different.  You don't have the magical CQ "a tactical bound" behind you, so the three days of food, water and rations are on your back.  With the mech dudes, the CQ can afford to load up the LAVs with more stuff with less effect on the soldiers, but with dismounted dudes, well, it just ain't that easy.

Again, it's all about function.


Garvin out.

 

[Grunt_031]

I've yet to see any add-on mag pouches for the issue TV - where would they fit? The only provision for extra pouches is on the back, and I hope you aren't advocating carrying ready ammo on one's back....

The extra pouches are the add-ons that come with the small pack and more with the new ruck wheneverit arrives on the scene.

The pouches are too high on the chest.

The TV is adjustable and you can lower your 4 mags pouches. But they are hard to get into when the vest is new.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

1) UCR's have been submitted by others that have been there done that.
2)  You love that LAV don't you. 

 

[vonGarvin]

1) UCR's have been submitted by others that have been there done that.
2)  You love that LAV don't you. 

Re: UCRs: keep sending them up: they do work, believe it or not
Re: LAVs: God damned right I do: how can you not?  Regarding the five combat functions, consider:
COMMAND: with the IRIS suite of gear, you can direct the actions of others from great distances, maintain comms on the move, etc and so on
SENSE: Thermal and II sights, combined with the x power Day sight, laser warning receiver, GPS, Lasers, etc, you can know not only where you are, but where "they" are, you can see them, you can "own the night"
ACT: 25mm fully stablised auto-cannon.  Need I say more?  OK, I will.  Coaxially mounted, fully stabilised 7.62mm MG.  Pintle mounted 7.62 or 5.56 mm MG, 8 76mm Grenade launchers.  7 soldiers armed to the teeth in the back.  Ability to hit what you want to hit when its moving, while you're on the move, at ranges exceeding a kilometre, day or night.
SHIELD: Without getting into OPSEC, it can stop x calibre at y metres, no friendly KIA due to enemy action (same with the STRYKER in Iraq as of a few months ago: I don't have the latest stats), ability to withstand great amounts of punishment.
SUSTAIN: with a LAV in your back pocket, able to bring supply up, or back, CASEVAC, whatever. 

As I said, how could you not love it?