"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[Scoobie Newbie]

"Perhaps removable mag pouches would solve it?"
Exactly which is what most good chest rigs are, modular.  Many pouches to choose from with a vest that has points all over it for these pouches to be attached at different heights and postions.

 

[GO!!!]

Now, forgetting for a moment that you have a vested (pun intended) interest.....
The big one is this: "My issued vest falls apart": solution: get a new one from the CQ.  "My store bought vest fell apart": solution: shell out another 500 bucks (or more) and maybe, JUST MAYBE, it'll be shipped by end tour.

Negative.

Most of the more reputable retailers (Kifaru, Arktis, Blackhawk, HSG) have overnight shipping, and I personally know of one company that shipped a replacement (holster) without recieving the damaged one first! Customer support is pretty good with these types of things.

The weak link is the Trenton-KAF leg (hehe, leg), and this can be circumvented by having the item shipped to someone on HLTA, and carried back.

Of course, the overly paranoid, like me, would just buy two, keep one in the wrapping and return it if all went well. I could always sell it on e-bay later .

 

[Britney Spears]

The big one is this: "My issued vest falls apart": solution: get a new one from the CQ.  "My store bought vest fell apart": solution: shell out another 500 bucks (or more) and maybe, JUST MAYBE, it'll be shipped by end tour.

I just can't understand this. If I have to buy my own vest, why does that automatically mean I leave the issued one at home? Can't I bring both of them?

 

[TCBF]

Sure,

If it falls apart on top of 'The Whale' or whatever, they can resupply you an Army one to get by on, too.

I am waiting for someone to get hurt wearing non-issued kit, and DVA to say "Not ours chum, have you tried suing the manufacturer?  Sure, everyone poo-poos that now, but times change.  Remember all of our guys who were bouncers in Lahr?  After they were told that any resulting injuries were not covered by the Canadian taxpayers, they went to the German bar owners to talk about medical coverage.

The Germans fired them. 

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

TCBF I'll take my chances with a aftermarket rig which isn't providing protection per se like the helmet or plates (then I could see them pulling that shit).

 

[COBRA-6]

Negative.

Most of the more reputable retailers (Kifaru, Arktis, Blackhawk, HSG) have overnight shipping, and I personally know of one company that shipped a replacement (holster) without recieving the damaged one first! Customer support is pretty good with these types of things.

The weak link is the Trenton-KAF leg (hehe, leg), and this can be circumvented by having the item shipped to someone on HLTA, and carried back.

Of course, the overly paranoid, like me, would just buy two, keep one in the wrapping and return it if all went well. I could always sell it on e-bay later .

Not to mention the quality is usualy MUCH better with aftermarket kit manufacturers... and of course you'd bring the issued kit just in case...

Don't get me started on the CF postal service    sometimes 6-8 weeks for a package... but when I went through the German mil-post it was about a week from Ottawa to my desk in Kabul, but way more expensive as you had to pay postage to Germany... using a US APO takes about 10 days as well I heard...

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

From GO!!! in a split topic (this portion at least belongs here)
"TCBF,

I'd love to see that one duked out in the court of public opinion, especially with our media sensitive military. Besides, DVA can't help me if I run out of ammo and wind up dead, now can they?

Besides, no one is recommending aftermarket helmets or body armour. (at least not yet)"

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Don't get me started on the CF postal service    sometimes 6-8 weeks for a package... but when I went through the German mil-post it was about a week from Ottawa to my desk in Kabul, but way more expensive as you had to pay postage to Germany... using a US APO takes about 10 days as well I heard...

Had the same thing when I was over there. Ship it via CanPost from Julien, and it took forever, 11/2 - 2 months, from theatre to Canada. A package sent from the Deutche Bundespost in Warehouse took about 7-10 days to go from A'ghan to Germany to my door in Canada.

 

[Recce41]

VonG
I have to say it. It's the Look cool thing.  If someone wants to pay 500-1000$ on a vest you may wear for 6 months OK. But I have better things to do with my money. I have pockets, extra pouches that will do the same thing. We both remember the old 54/64 Pat webbing, it was good then as now. The Brits still use it in the Jungle. Its easy to fix and to add to.
Too many movie watchers. I don't allow any of my soldiers to wear any none Canadian Kit. Maybe gloves, if blk.
As Stated, YES I'm a prick. What about it.

 

[Dissident]

I was told the story of an MP who got some nerve damage on the job. The story said that he never could get compensated, because it could not get establishes if he fell on his issued or non issued pair of handcuff, one of which was resposible for the nerve damage. The sgt who told me this made it clear that he would only let his troops wear the issued kit, and only in the one accepted standard, with the patrol dress. The only deviation was if you were left handed.

I don't agree, but I understand.

 

[silentbutdeadly]

i am over here , and yes i am one of those who spent about 250 dollars on a chest rig and attachments. The issued stuff just doesn't cut it out here period. The yankees started out with issued gear a yr ago and about a mth into the tour they let there guys buy there own and most of it was chest rigs. Meaning more room for mags and ammo. This is not Bosnia! If we had the issued stuff back in Kosovo it would have been great!

 

[Michael Dorosh]

VonG
I have to say it. It's the Look cool thing.  If someone wants to pay 500-1000$ on a vest you may wear for 6 months OK. But I have better things to do with my money. I have pockets, extra pouches that will do the same thing. We both remember the old 54/64 Pat webbing, it was good then as now. The Brits still use it in the Jungle. Its easy to fix and to add to.
Too many movie watchers. I don't allow any of my soldiers to wear any none Canadian Kit. Maybe gloves, if blk.
As Stated, YES I'm a prick. What about it.

This is the same 64 Pattern webbing THAT DIDN'T HAVE AMMUNITION POUCHES because it was expected a soldier could carry a full basic load in his shirt pockets?

 

[Michael OLeary]

i am over here , and yes i am one of those who spent about 250 dollars on a chest rig and attachments. The issued stuff just doesn't cut it out here period. The yankees started out with issued gear a yr ago and about a mth into the tour they let there guys buy there own and most of it was chest rigs. Meaning more room for mags and ammo. This is not Bosnia! If we had the issued stuff back in Kosovo it would have been great!

This, I would suggest, is the most significant observation made in this thread.

What works "best" is dependent on the time, place and the operations being conducted.  It is modified by the experiences of those conducting operations, and by the availability of equipment options, both within the system and the commercial options available for individual purchases.

What worked yesterday may not be good enough for today.

What works today may not be considered ideal tomorrow.

Shall we watch for the observations posted by soldiers on Roto 20 wondering why they have a vest with an outrageous basic load of 15 magazines in a relatively peaceful nation we're thinking about leaving?  Will it happen, will we be there long enough - who knows?  Perhaps "fixing" a new basic load standard that fits Afghanistan in 2006 will be considered extreme and a burden when 'inflicted' on troops deploying to our the next mission somewhere else.

We need to recognize the transitory nature of what's "good enough" or "best" in terms of both basic load and the equipment to carry it, and the many operational, experiential and kit availability factors that affect those opinions in order to ensure that we can adjust accordingly.

What we need is a system sufficiently responsive to soldiers' needs for this type of equipment that can adjust to the fact that even within a single mission manadate the requirements and options can change quickly.  And that there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

 

[MdB]

We need to recognize the transitory nature of what's "good enough" or "best" in terms of both basic load and the equipment to carry it, and the many operational, experiential and kit availability factors that affect those opinions in order to ensure that we can adjust accordingly.

What we need is a system sufficiently responsive to soldiers' needs for this type of equipment that can adjust to the fact that even within a single mission manadate the requirements and options can change quickly.  And that there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

Well, I guess the Army, BG or TF should be a flexible entity adapting to the situation or mission. Isn't that a successful way to approach a mission in order to be successful?

Now, does the CofC in theater recognize this equipment need? If yes, do they have the latitude to address this kind of problem? Is it a matter of leadership? Could it be that the soldier always want the best rig and if you give a hand, they'll take an arm, and so on?

Could the CofC allow money to buy off-the-shelf equipment when needed as part of operation money allocation?

And, why isn't the TV modular?? Is it? Even me, without any military experience, or clothes design experience , can see that it's common sense...

 

[Britney Spears]

What we need is a system sufficiently responsive to soldiers' needs for this type of equipment that can adjust to the fact that even within a single mission manadate the requirements and options can change quickly.

You mean a modular one?

If we had the issued stuff back in Kosovo it would have been great!

To the credit of the naysayers, i must admit that the technological and engineering advances in personal load bearing equipment has advanced by leaps and bounds in the last few years, witness what the Americans were wearing in Afghan in 2001/2(not too different from us), vs what they are wearing in Iraq now: Night and day. The product lifecyle has changed from decades (82 pttn) to a few years.

The reason for this was somewhat alluded to by the Fulda comparisons. The difference between 1985 and now is that in 1985 the infantryman's webbing simply wasn't a particularly important priority for planners. When one expects the war to be fought with thousands of tanks, Apache brigades, and tactical nukes, who really cared how many rifle mags the infantry carried? It didn't matter in the big scheme of things. WELL, IT DOES NOW. That whole strategic coporal thing means the infantry is now the arm of decision and he needs to have the best stuff out there. It's the same thing with all the other infantry kit: Modular rifles, thousand dollar rifle sights for every soldier, ballistic eyewear.... all of this stuff existed in 1985, it just wasn't important enough back then for the big army to notice.

 

[Recce41]

This is the same 64 Pattern webbing THAT DIDN'T HAVE AMMUNITION POUCHES because it was expected a soldier could carry a full basic load in his shirt pockets?

Mike
Yes, but the 64 Pat webbing, which was a US design did have ammo pouches. But we could not use them, remember FN -Cdn,  M14/M16- US. I had a set I sold, they were rubber covered, just like the genade pouch was. I still have the rest of the set. In Cornwalls it was used, for many yrs.

It is like, wearing your uniform. Some fellas like to look cool, with their floppies curve up like Gunny Hwy. Or the sun glass thing, Gucci gloves, etc. I had one yng fella, showup for the CLC. He had all this fine looking kit. But  his gloves fell apart, and his Hi Tech boot soles fell off. He had no extra kit, no gloves and boots. He had to get them sent out, but he did look cool. When he had them to wear.
I still wear the old 52 PaT green mittins, that my father wore in Korea. We all know the Blk and wht ones. Stiil use my trusty ground sheet, and old blk betty air matress. No stelth suit, no fancy gloves and do just fine. RAIN SNOW AND SHINE.
Because I view it as If a piece of kit has been around that long, it can be that bad.
But I'm an old 5hit, and still love the Lynx.
:evil: :tank:

 

[Michael OLeary]

You mean a modular one?

I was not refering to any particular load carrying system, but rather to the "system" which identifies requirements, selects suitable kit and puts it into the hands of soldiers.

 

[DG-41]

But the "modular" point is well taken, and should, I think, be a major design requirement.

The biggest downside to rapid prototyping and rapid revision is the generation of lots of obsolete kit and the reduction of economies of scale. Modularity - TRUE modularity, not the faux modularity that the the current state of the TV and the small pack, insulates kit against obsolesces.

We've determined that load-bearing vests greatly trump the old style yokes-and-straps web gear, so it seems appropriate that the base of any load bearing system be vest-based. Then comes the selection of the attachment style for the base unit, and then the different kinds of pouches to fulfill mission requirements.

I would offer that adopting a standard already in use by another, large country be used so we can leverage economies of scale (*cough* MOLLE *cough*)  - unless there is a design flaw in the standard, in which case it may be a good idea to develop our own.

Oddly enough, one can, right this second, buy off-the-shelf Canadian-style Tac Vests fitted with MOLLE loops - the only question is if this kit is manufactured to the appropriate quality standard. Doing a MOLLE-based (or other modular system) TV seems like such a no-brainer I'm genuinely surprised that CTS isn't already moving in this direction.

Same deal with the small pack. A good, basic backpack frame, with a decent-sized central compartment, with the exterior surface fitted with MOLLE loops (again, I'm not married to MOLLE - any truly modular system would do it) seems like a no-brainer. And given the popularity of the "jump ruck", why the base of the system wasn't the 64 pattern frame (perhaps updated with modern ergonomics and materials) is again, completely beyond me.

And - suprise suprise - the aftermarket is chock ablock with 64-rucks-plus-MOLLE systems.

Am I alone in thinking all this is obvious?

DG

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from Recce41,
I still wear the old 52 PaT green mittins, that my father wore in Korea.

I'm assuming these were issued to you otherwise the standards would be unauthorized issue kit is OK for you but not those below you?

Quote from Recce41,
I had one yng fella, showup for the CLC. He had all this fine looking kit. But  his gloves fell apart, and his Hi Tech boot soles fell off. He had no extra kit, no gloves and boots. He had to get them sent out, but he did look cool. When he had them to wear.

...and the course standards the instructors issued was so low that the personal did not have to bring their issued kit to ensure a course uniformity during inspections? Surely not the CLC I did a long time ago.....

 

[combat_medic]

RecceDG: No, you're certainly not alone. Just about everyone I know, upon seeing the current TV for the first time were pretty much gobsmacked. "What, it's NOT modular?!" Seemed to be the pervasive attitude.

While I prefer a vest system by far, at least with the old webbing you could add or remove pouches, make it left or right handed, and the like. The MOLLE system would have been an ideal choice for the CF, and it's so pervasive that it couldn't have possibly been that expensive to acquire.