"The stuff the army issues is useless" and "no non-issue kit over seas!"

[Recce41]

Quote from Recce41,
I still wear the old 52 PaT green mittins, that my father wore in Korea.

I'm assuming these were issued to you otherwise the standards would be unauthorized issue kit is OK for you but not those below you?

Quote from Recce41,
I had one yng fella, showup for the CLC. He had all this fine looking kit. But  his gloves fell apart, and his Hi Tech boot soles fell off. He had no extra kit, no gloves and boots. He had to get them sent out, but he did look cool. When he had them to wear.

...and the course standards the instructors issued was so low that the personal did not have to bring their issued kit to ensure a course uniformity during inspections? Surely not the CLC I did a long time ago.....

Bruce
If you were in the Military, you would have known about those green mittins. 1234 head.

And how could we prevented him from wearing his gucci boots and gloves. If that is all he has with him. Maybe go inspect him at his house or we could have had all the course wear their barefeet, they would have been the same then? Twit

:evil: :tank:

 

[mudgunner49]

Now, forgetting for a moment that you have a vested (pun intended) interest.....
The big one is this: "My issued vest falls apart": solution: get a new one from the CQ.  "My store bought vest fell apart": solution: shell out another 500 bucks (or more) and maybe, JUST MAYBE, it'll be shipped by end tour.

Have you ever even compared the quality of the issue TV to SOTech/HSGI/Paraclete/Eagle???  The issue vest is a piece of crap (I am speaking only of construction - the functionality of it is a whole other matter), that can't even begin to compare to the private market.  I have pretty much destroyed 2 of them, as a reservist, hammering them on a part-time basis.  Granted I'm 250 pounds, and unusually hard on kit, but I do have vests/rigs from Eagle and SOTech that I've had for 2-3 years of frequent course/range work that are unmarred (dirty yes, broken/ripped/unserviceable - no...). 

There is a drag handle on the back that is "supposed" to be an aid in extrcting you buddy from the line of fire, that is barely suitable for picking up the vest when loaded.  The first one that I broke tore off when slinging mine into the back of the CP (4 mags of blank, canteen, trauma kit, rainjacket, mini-Maglite - hardly close to an operational load), so I would surmise that unless your fireteam partner is a garden gnome, you won't be dragging him'her anywhere, but will be un-assing the area with a chunk of nylon in your hand while your buddy bleeds to death.  You can comfort yourself and his/her NOK with the fact that at least he/she had not violated some marginally useful CANFORGEN...


be safe

blake

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I thought that handle was to hang it up in my locker with.

I suppose I'll be content with the new snowshoes as well.  They were ISSUED after all so they must be the best.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Bruce
If you were in the Military, you would have known about those green mittins. 1234 head.

And how could we prevented him from wearing his gucci boots and gloves. If that is all he has with him. Maybe go inspect him at his house or we could have had all the course wear their barefeet, they would have been the same then? Twit

:evil: :tank:

recce, ...your comments on kit seem seriously out of whack (though I think many agree with your assertion that issued kit is for the most part serviceable if not luxurious).  So far, you've stated that Lee-Enfield users changed magazines (they didn't, they used chargers), that you use Korean War era gloves (possible, I was issued a 1952 dated balaclava in 1991, though i don't think the black leather and green inner combo was Korean era, I stand to be corrected but I thought we still used brown khaki wool gloves then), and declared that Canadian Pattern 64 webbing was a US design that was the cat's meow that would hold up today despite the fact it didn't have any ammunition pouches (!).

I don't think we're going to ask you for advice on what kind of mess tins to use because I think I know what your recommendation would be.

Though I am sure they would be "just as good now as then."  Which when you think about it is not necessarily an endorsement....

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
Bruce
If you were in the Military, you would have known about those green mittins. 1234 head.

Well I was, and I don't. Sorry.

 

[mudgunner49]

VERY good points.  Perhaps removable mag pouches would solve it? 

...but according to CTS, MOLLE is on the way out - I know, let's come up with our own half-assed incarnation for "modular" that doesn't integrate with anyone else's (making it ridiculously expensive and proprietary - and 4 generations behind everyone else in the universe with the exception of a bunch of aboriginals in New Guinea...) and we'll call it "daisy-chain" and we'll orient it 90-degrees from everybody else's!!!

In the time that it has taken us to "develop" this albatross, not only has the U.S. been through SPEAR/FSBE/PALS/MOLLE, but the whole concept of fixed pocket design has died like the dinosaurs (and justifiabley so), and the concept of modularity has flourished.  I wonder why that is??  Oh, I know - we don't all do the same job!!  Would it not be easier and less complicated for the rear-echelon types to carry less in their rig purpose-designed to carry 10-12 mags than to have pointy-end guys searching for room in what you have defined as a "just fine as it is" vest designed around 4 mags for a place to put another 6-8 mags + frags + smoke + NVG's + trauma kit + batteries for everything imagineable + water ('cause that's not really vital) + a Power Bar or 3 + bayonet + whatever else the chain-of-command decides you should carry.

And whose idea was it to put mag pouches there in the 1st place, thereby guaranteeing that whether you are right or left-handed, 50% of your ammo will be on the wrong side of your body (I know, I know - it's only 2 fricking mags)!!!

Someone needs to pull their head from their 3rd point of contact - oxygen is essential...


blake

 

[TCBF]

" Yes, but the 64 Pat webbing, which was a US design did have ammo pouches. But we could not use them, remember FN -Cdn,  M14/M16- US. I had a set I sold, they were rubber covered, just like the genade pouch was. I still have the rest of the set. In Cornwalls it was used, for many yrs."

- 64 patt (velcro) was a US design?  News...

Terminology:

1.  1937 Pattern ?
2.  1951 Pattern (Cdn, Brits used 1954) metal hooke and holes in belt, metal buckles.
3.  1964 Pattern (Cdn, US used LBE, w metal tabs and buckles). Velcro and plastic,  mag pouches rare.
4.  1982 pattern.
5.  LCV
6.  TV

So far, so good?

1.  1937 Large, Medium, and Small packs.
2.  1951 Large and Small Packs.  Metal fittings - plastic buckles on late production Small Pack for PRes.
3.  Cargo Pack 1964.  Plastic fittings, zippers, tump line, padded shoulder straps (finally!).
4.  Rucksack, Universal, C1 (cotton duck bag - rare) and C2 (rubber bag).  On alice type frame, c/w "Bottle opener."  Often erroneously called "64 pattern  jump ruck." Plastic fittings.
5.  Large Pack 1982.  external wire frame, plastic fittings.

Comments?

"Someone needs to pull their head from their 3rd point of contact - oxygen is essential..."

- Third Point of Contact was "Thighs" way back when I first learned about extreme gravitational pull.
(BOTF, Calves, Thighs, Buttocks, DATB.  Has it changed?)

Modular:  Modular was being told to fight the metal hooks on your 51 pattern in freezing rain with bare hands, because they wanted your cross straps and basic (Bren Gun) pouches off for the patrol, then being told to put them back on (now it is snowing...) because you aren't going on the patrol, then to take them off again (back to freezing rain...) because you are... 

 

[mudgunner49]

" Yes, but the 64 Pat webbing, which was a US design did have ammo pouches. But we could not use them, remember FN -Cdn,  M14/M16- US. I had a set I sold, they were rubber covered, just like the genade pouch was. I still have the rest of the set. In Cornwalls it was used, for many yrs."

- 64 patt (velcro) was a US design?  News...

Terminology:

1.  1937 Pattern ?
2.  1951 Pattern (Cdn, Brits used 1954) metal hooke and holes in belt, metal buckles.
3.  1964 Pattern (Cdn, US used LBE, w metal tabs and buckles). Velcro and plastic,  mag pouches rare.
4.  1982 pattern.
5.  LCV
6.  TV

So far, so good?

1.  1937 Large, Medium, and Small packs.
2.  1951 Large and Small Packs.  Metal fittings - plastic buckles on late production Small Pack for PRes.
3.  Cargo Pack 1964.  Plastic fittings, zippers, tump line, padded shoulder straps (finally!).
4.  Rucksack, Universal, C1 (cotton duck bag - rare) and C2 (rubber bag).  On alice type frame, c/w "Bottle opener."  Often erroneously called "64 pattern  jump ruck." Plastic fittings.
5.  Large Pack 1982.  external wire frame, plastic fittings.

Comments?

"Someone needs to pull their head from their 3rd point of contact - oxygen is essential..."

- Third Point of Contact was "Thighs" way back when I first learned about extreme gravitational pull.
(BOTF, Calves, Thighs, Buttocks, DATB.  Has it changed?)

Modular:  Modular was being told to fight the metal hooks on your 51 pattern in freezing rain with bare hands, because they wanted your cross straps and basic (Bren Gun) pouches off for the patrol, then being told to put them back on (now it is snowing...) because you aren't going on the patrol, then to take them off again (back to freezing rain...) because you are... 

Remarkably informative!!

3rd point of contact I guess depends upon your frame of reference - we always referred to it as "where you sit"...


be safe,

blake

 

[Michael Dorosh]

" Yes, but the 64 Pat webbing, which was a US design did have ammo pouches. But we could not use them, remember FN -Cdn,  M14/M16- US. I had a set I sold, they were rubber covered, just like the genade pouch was. I still have the rest of the set. In Cornwalls it was used, for many yrs."

Terminology:

1.  1937 Pattern ?
2.  1951 Pattern (Cdn, Brits used 1954) metal hooke and holes in belt, metal buckles.
3.  1964 Pattern (Cdn, US used LBE, w metal tabs and buckles). Velcro and plastic,  mag pouches rare.
4.  1982 pattern.
5.  LCV
6.  TV

So far, so good?

Web Equipment, 1937 Pattern
Web Equipment, 1951 Pattern
Web Equipment, 1964 Pattern
1982 Pattern Webbing

You've gotten the list correct, the above are, I think, the official designations.  Still working on putting the pertinent info on my site on all these.

64 Pattern belts had crappy plastic buckles and a narrow yoke without ammo pouches, the idea being to fight from your shirt pockets (though with the waist belt riding at the same level as the lower pockets, that can't have been great for reload times, which seem to be a concern in this thread. As for it being US designed, I'd have to check Summers' book, but the concept of the webbing was done around the Canadian combat dress and carriage of FN mags in the shirt or combat coat. Pretty sure the US never adopted it - their gear had ammo pouches, and holes in the belt (the 64 Cdn pattern used web loops and a plain web belt with no holes).

51 Pattern stuff was a marginal improvement over 37 pattern gear, but was only briefly in service; despite the name no one used it til after the Korean War, and to my knowledge never operationally (?) in any large quantities.  It had a US style water bottle (no more cork stoppers!) and benefited primarily from being green and not tan. It also had a folding e-tool (not the useless helve and head style we laughinly issued from 1908 to 1951 or thereabouts) and a web carrier for the vaunted metal mess tin (in WW II we were supposed to carry the water bottle in the haversack along with the mess tin, but most guys suspended them from the brace ends, looking like gypsies in the process).

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Modular:  Modular was being told to fight the metal hooks on your 51 pattern in freezing rain with bare hands, because they wanted your cross straps and basic (Bren Gun) pouches off for the patrol, then being told to put them back on (now it is snowing...) because you aren't going on the patrol, then to take them off again (back to freezing rain...) because you are... 

LOL.  Here is another example of modularity, from the 1937 Pattern, told by Don Chittenden in LEGION magazine.  And yes, this is THE Aubrey Cosens he is talking about.

I was a teenage rifleman in 16 Platoon...Sergeant Aubrey Cosens came frequently to each slit trench; I think he was trying to lift our spirits. We were two men to a trench, but there was little talk. There was too much on our minds, and we were wet and cold. Most were probably too nervous to be hungry - not that we would get any food right then anyway. When Cosens finally came to tell us that we were starting our assault in a few minutes, we got out of the trenches and started fussing with our equipment. We took off our gas capes and rolled them up tightly. My buddy and I helped each other strap gas capes to the centre of our web belts, in the small of our backs. This kept the cape out of the way. A rifleman wanted as low a profile as possible when he had to drive to the ground under sudden fire

Every lad in our outfit agreed that the most important piece of equipment an infantryman had was his short, D-handled shovel. We helped each other with these, too. The handle had to be inserted through the cross-straps on our backs.

This time, I couldn't fasten my web belt because the rain had made it shrink a little. The webbing was not designed for easy adjustment and my fingers were stiff from the cold. This was complicated by the fact that some time earlier, in Nijmegen, our lieutenant had made me platoon runner. I don't know why he did this, because he already had a runner. But the lieutenant wanted me to carry his Very pistol all the time, and I had failed to properly adjust the web belt to carry the extra burden.

When Cosens came by again, he noted my difficulty and offered to help. You can imagine the ridiculous scene: here was Cosens kneeling in the mud before me, trying to get my belt done up while all kinds of death-dealing metal flew overhead. It was if I were a not-too-bright youngster who was late for Sunday school, and his mother was trying to get him presentable and on his way. Looking down at the top of the sergeant's helmet I started to laugh. I stuck my thumb in my mouth to complete the picture, and when Cosens looked up into my face he roared with laughter too. It was a great tension-reliever.

 

[Recce41]

recce, ...your comments on kit seem seriously out of whack (though I think many agree with your assertion that issued kit is for the most part serviceable if not luxurious).  So far, you've stated that Lee-Enfield users changed magazines (they didn't, they used chargers), that you use Korean War era gloves (possible, I was issued a 1952 dated balaclava in 1991, though i don't think the black leather and green inner combo was Korean era, I stand to be corrected but I thought we still used brown khaki wool gloves then), and declared that Canadian Pattern 64 webbing was a US design that was the cat's meow that would hold up today despite the fact it didn't have any ammunition pouches (!).

I don't think we're going to ask you for advice on what kind of mess tins to use because I think I know what your recommendation would be.

Though I am sure they would be "just as good now as then."  Which when you think about it is not necessarily an endorsement....

Mike
Not the Blk and green gloves fella, I know reserves don't get the same kit, but. You as a history buff should know. They were Blk and wht liners, and green outer. As for the 64 Pat webbing, It was a US design. Check out the Y straps, butt pack and Genade pouches. They were issued to US Marines in 63. As you should know. I have not contacted my uncle as of yet, to confirm.

For the webbing been better, it maybe better for some tours. IE the Jungle Warfare. Its easy to fix, no buckles to rust, and you can add extra pouches. I had spoke to a fella that was on the course. He and others were knocked, to see some of the instructors wearing old Brit webbing. And that was the reason, cheap and easy.
As for the mess tins HAHA.
Your knowledge of uniforms and kit is not as deep as you think.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Mike
Not the Blk and green gloves fella, I know reserves don't get the same kit, but. You as a history buff should know. They were Blk and wht liners, and green outer. As for the 64 Pat webbing, It was a US design. Check out the Y straps, butt pack and Genade pouches. They were issued to US Marines in 63. As you should know. I have not contacted my uncle as of yet, to confirm.

For the webbing been better, it maybe better for some tours. IE the Jungle Warfare. Its easy to fix, no buckles to rust, and you can add extra pouches. I had spoke to a fella that was on the course. He and others were knocked, to see some of the instructors wearing old Brit webbing. And that was the reason, cheap and easy.
As for the mess tins HAHA.
Your knowledge of uniforms and kit is not as deep as you think.

Well, my access to sources while at work is certainly limited, I'll give you that.  And I'll say that you're right about plastic buckles not rusting.  I'd rather have a rusty buckle than a broken one though - a broken waistbelt buckle is about as useful as those soleless boots your private was walking about in.

But as for the gloves - as Bruce pointed out, that isn't what is issued to your troops, so why is it ok for you to wear them?

 

[TCBF]

Aubrey Cosens has a bridge named after him on Highway 11, at Latchford, I think.  They had a hard time getting 'Toronto' to approve the naming, as naming things after 'combat' soldiers who were KIA and never had the chance to contribute to our country in other less violent ways can be VERY political.

Did "Case, Ammunition, Magazine, 1964" (C2 Bra) have any contemporaries in the 1964 mag pouch department - officially?  We used a 1951 basic pouch as an SMG pouch for the 3x30 and 1x10 round mags, plastic box cleaning kit, and BFA.

"Your knowledge of uniforms and kit is not as deep as you think." - Recce 41

- How do we KNOW what he THINKS?  ESP?  I ain't Kreskin.  We can only go by what he TYPES. Thus far, I have detected no boasting.

;D

 

[Recce41]

TOM
Yes we added the velcro. It was the design, ie Yoke, pouches, ie. I am saying is an US design. I have 3 old canteen carriers.  1 hook 2 velcro. One velcro is Cdn, NSN and all. The other rubber NSN issued with a big US on the side and a genade pouch that is rubber and velcro, with a US marking. I thought it was wierd but, I only found this out, by going to a Militaria show in Detroit, Mich. One vendor had alot of early 60s US kit. The old guy, was a VN Vet. I recieved some very good info from him.
The different US manufactures, and what they made.

 

[Recce41]

Well, my access to sources while at work is certainly limited, I'll give you that.  And I'll say that you're right about plastic buckles not rusting.  I'd rather have a rusty buckle than a broken one though - a broken waistbelt buckle is about as useful as those soleless boots your private was walking about in.

But as for the gloves - as Bruce pointed out, that isn't what is issued to your troops, so why is it ok for you to wear them?

Yes the plastic sucks, it is a point, that some old kit is better than the new.

There are many of my soldiers that have them.  Some of my soldiers have the new crew gloves, but some don't. Some have old gumbies, and yng fellas don't. IF IT'S ISSUED IT'S OK. I still have the old blk gloves, new soldiers are not issued them. So maybe think of us old fellas having some kit that is not issued anymore.

 

[ImanIdiot]

http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pageID=canada_home&articleID=2206544

I stumbled upon this...hopefully I have posted the link properly. Apparently the Defense Minister thinks that a vest capable of holding 10 mags is "excessive".

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 
Defence minister says troops buying their own equipment "unconscionable"

EDMONTON (CP) - Canada's defence minister said Wednesday he won't condone for one second soldiers putting up their own cash for upgraded equipment.
Gordon O'Connor, a former brigadier general, is investigating media reports that some soldiers in Afghanistan have spent hundreds to thousands of dollars on everything from desert boots to ammunition vests because the current military issue is inadequate or unsafe.

"If the equipment the Armed Forces is providing for military operations is not adequate then it is up to us in the military to provide adequate equipment," O'Connor said during a tour of the Edmonton Garrison - the home base for most of the 2,200 troops serving in Afghanistan.

"There should be no case where any soldier pays out of his own pocket to buy equipment for military operations. It's unconscionable."

O'Connor said he and Prime Minister Stephen Harper spoke to hundreds of troops on a tour of the Middle Eastern country last week.

"Nobody complained about equipment to us. In fact they were giving us the opposite story."

He said the critical question to his review is whether the complaints are isolated or widespread.

 

[COBRA-6]

"If the equipment the Armed Forces is providing for military operations is not adequate then it is up to us in the military to provide adequate equipment," O'Connor said during a tour of the Edmonton Garrison.

So this means chest-rigs by LPO right??  ;D

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
"Nobody complained about equipment to us."

Well, just the fact he can say that confirms he is either out to lunch or a 100% politician and either way should have an opportunity to serve the people of Canada in another capacity.

 

[Kal]

As some have stated, the wearing of rigs other than the TV is only for the look cool factor.  I'm left wondering that if the TV is so great, why don't the JTF2 use it, or any other SF unit for that matter?  When these world-class fighters buy their own RAVs, CIRAS, or quality made rig, they're doing it for LCF? 

Cheers