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The US Presidency 2018

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https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/365393-how-quickly-ny-times-forgets-obamas-lies-and-frauds



"How quickly NY Times forgets Obama's lies and frauds
© Getty

Donald Trump has been flogging the truth and twisting facts since the day he arrived in the Oval Office. But anyone who expected more candor from him as president than on the campaign trail was criminally naive. The real mystery nowadays is why the media seeks to expunge the falsehoods of prior presidents.

“Trump’s Lies versus Obama’s” was the headline in a Sunday Review New York Times piece aiming to drive a final coffin nail into Trump’s credibility. The Times claimed Trump has already “told nearly six times as many falsehoods as Obama did during his entire (8-year) presidency.”  The columnists seem so distraught that it is surprising the article is not in all caps.

But the Times’ list of falsehoods is itself a charade with gaping Montana-sized holes."
 
Fishbone Jones said:
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/365393-how-quickly-ny-times-forgets-obamas-lies-and-frauds



"How quickly NY Times forgets Obama's lies and frauds
© Getty

Donald Trump has been flogging the truth and twisting facts since the day he arrived in the Oval Office. But anyone who expected more candor from him as president than on the campaign trail was criminally naive. The real mystery nowadays is why the media seeks to expunge the falsehoods of prior presidents.

“Trump’s Lies versus Obama’s” was the headline in a Sunday Review New York Times piece aiming to drive a final coffin nail into Trump’s credibility. The Times claimed Trump has already “told nearly six times as many falsehoods as Obama did during his entire (8-year) presidency.”  The columnists seem so distraught that it is surprising the article is not in all caps.

But the Times’ list of falsehoods is itself a charade with gaping Montana-sized holes."

Obama has not been president in a couple years now, so the 'but Obama!' is wearing pretty thin and has long lost its relevance.
 
Brihard said:
Obama has not been president in a couple years now, so the 'but Obama!' is wearing pretty thin and has long lost its relevance.

I really don't see why. People are acting like Trump is the only one that ever lied as President. Many of the lies are simply self aggrandizing. Some rub people the wrong way. Whatever the reason, a yardstick needs to be established and you can't do that with one president. Obama, Bush and Clintons lies resulted in the wrongful deaths of thousands of people and the raping of countries like Haiti

How many of Trump's lies have gotten as many innocent people killed as Obama's or Bush's? How many countries has Trump destroyed?

I suppose it's useless talking about how many campaign promises he's kept compared to other president's. More than any in recent history.

But that would lay bare the hypocrisy of the democrats and the left and anyone else that spends time looking only at one side, in order to further their bias against somebody because they dislike him.

So yes, Obama, Clinton, the Bushs are as equally important to the argument of presidents that lie, as Trump is.

That's how I judge. Has Trump's lies created an illegal operation, like Fast and Furious, that has killed hundreds in Mexico and the death of US Border agents and other civilian Americans? How many troops have been killed because Bush lied about the reason to start a war? Have Trump's lies created any situations like Benghazi?

When I compare incidents like these, created by lies of former presidents, to Trump grandstanding and claiming the best economy ever, I have a hard time understanding where the left is trying to go. Thousands of deaths, caused by lies of former presidents don't seem to matter if Trumps detractors can zero in on his bombastic platitudes.
 
[quote author=Fishbone Jones] like Fast and Furious, that has killed hundreds in Mexico and the death of US Border agents and other civilian Americans? How many troops have been killed because Trump lied about the reason to start a war? Have Trump's lies created any situations like Benghazi?
[/quote]

This is the main reason why I think Trump was and will always be a better choice for president.  The US has a sorid history of invading countries or getting involved in their affairs under bullshit reasons leading to soldier and civilian deaths.
 
Infanteer said:
Tu Quoque.

I'm not condoning it, but at the same time, if you want to try define his lies, they need to be taken in the context of presidential lies. This is not a, he did it, so can I. It is simply a way of defining what a presidential lie entails and the severity of those lies.

Simply, there are those that will demonize Trump for lying, but will give a buy to others who lied as President and killed people and countries.

That your hypocracy right there. It not right for Trump to lie. However, it's not alright to try define him as the worst liar. He may tell more than others, but his lies are nowhere near as dangerous and fatal as those told by other presidents.

The hypocracy also bleeds though for those that only concentrate on his faults.

Tu Quoque for sure, but not from my end.




 
On a different topic - the ongoing feud with Adm McRaven:

Architect of bin Laden raid: Trump 'threatens the Constitution' when he attacks the media
By Jake Tapper and Devan Cole, CNN
Updated 5:29 PM ET, Sun November 18, 2018

Washington (CNN)Retired Adm. William McRaven on Sunday stood by his previous statement that President Donald Trump's attacks on the news media represent "the greatest threat to democracy" after the President dismissed him as a "Hillary Clinton backer" in an interview that aired on Fox News.

"I did not back Hillary Clinton or anyone else," McRaven, who oversaw the operation that killed Osama bin Laden, told CNN. "I am a fan of President Obama and President George W. Bush, both of whom I worked for. I admire all presidents, regardless of their political party, who uphold the dignity of the office and who use that office to bring the nation together in challenging times."

"I stand by my comment that the President's attack on the media is the greatest threat to our democracy in my lifetime," McRaven said, referencing remarks he made about Trump last year. "When you undermine the people's right to a free press and freedom of speech and expression, then you threaten the Constitution and all for which it stands."

. . .

See rest of article here:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/18/politics/donald-trump-william-mcraven/index.html

:cheers:
 
FJAG said:
On a different topic - the ongoing feud with Adm McRaven:

See rest of article here:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/18/politics/donald-trump-william-mcraven/index.html

:cheers:
If the media hadn't rushed out to declare him not president, and then not "really president" they might have a leg to stand on. Unfortunately the media has proven partisan, and questionable when reporting on Trump.


I don't agree with demonizing all media,  all times, but the media has appeared less that impartial, and less than reliable. Don't just blame Trump for how this has gone down.
 
Fishbone Jones said:
if you want to try define his lies, they need to be taken in the context of presidential lies. This is not a, he did it, so can I. It is simply a way of defining what a presidential lie entails and the severity of those lies.

It's actually quite humerous how you are trying to dig yourself out of your logical fallacy.  Just replace the words in the sort-of syllogism you made above, and the fallacy is apparent.

"If you want to try define his murders, they need to be taken in the context of serial killer murders.  This is not a, he did it, so can I.  It is simply a way of defining what a serial killer murder entails and the severity of those murders."

Tu quoque: to avoid having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser - answering criticism with criticism.  It avoids the original argument.

The president either lies or does not.
The president either surrounds himself with indicted felons or does not.
The president either runs a hot economy or does not.
The president either insults long-standing allies to their face and on social media or does not.
The president either brings North Korea to the table or does not.
The president either cuts taxes or does not.
The president either supports economic protectionist policies or does not.

One can't defend the current President's actions/behaviors/failures by shifting the argument to past Presidential actions/behaviors/failures.  It is...logical fallacious.
 
The "Make your Bed" Admiral gets called names by the President.

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/newspolitics/architect-of-bin-laden-raid-trump-threatens-the-constitution-when-he-attacks-the-media/ar-BBPR2l9?ocid=ientp

Trump made the remarks during a tense exchange with Fox News' Chris Wallace after the host brought up McRaven, a vocal Trump critic who led the bin Laden operation in 2011 during former President Barack Obama's administration.

"Bill McRaven, retired admiral, Navy SEAL, 37 years, former head of US Special Operations..." Wallace started.

"Hillary Clinton fan," Trump said, cutting off Wallace.

"Special Operations ..." Wallace continued.

"Excuse me, Hillary Clinton fan," Trump said.

"Who led the operations," Wallace added, "commanded the operations that took down Saddam Hussein and that killed Osama bin Laden, says that your sentiment is the greatest threat to democracy in his lifetime."

"OK, he's a Hilary Clinton backer and an Obama-backer, and frankly ... wouldn't it have been nice if we got Osama bin Laden a lot sooner than that? Wouldn't it have been nice? You know, living -- think of this -- living in Pakistan, beautifully in Pakistan."

After Wallace asked if the President would give McRaven any credit for taking down bin Laden, Trump said "they took him down" but quickly shifted to talking about US aid to Pakistan, where bin Laden was killed.

If you don't know who McRaven is, he also gained fame with this University of Texas commencement speech;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxBQLFLei70
 
Bill McRaven also weighed in last summer, when Trump revoked John Brennan's security clearance:

"Few Americans have done more to protect this country than John. He is a man of unparalleled integrity, whose honesty and character have never been in question, except by those who don't know him. Therefore, I would consider it an honor if you would revoke my security clearance as well...."

 
So let's hear from someone who served under eight different Commanders in Chief....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/11/19/i-served-under-commanders-chief-trump-doesnt-grasp-role/?utm_term=.b566d196764b

By Wesley K. Clark
Retired Gen. Wesley K. Clark is a former NATO supreme allied commander. He is a Centennial Fellow at Georgetown and a senior fellow at the UCLA Burkle Center for International Relations.
November 19 at 9:00 AM
Of all the roles of the presidency, commander in chief was perhaps the one that candidate Donald Trump most relished. His take-charge style, his hat and slogan, his command presence on the stage, his early experience at New York Military Academy and his boasting that “I know more about ISIS than the generals do” demonstrated his inclinations. And many Americans, including service members and veterans, believed that he would be a strong and effective commander in chief.

Yet as president, Trump’s actions and behavior have led service members and veterans to question whether he really understands who a commander in chief is, or what he does.

I served under eight presidents. I applied for West Point as President John F. Kennedy confronted the Soviets in Berlin, went to Vietnam under President Richard Nixon and came home on a stretcher, worked in the White House under President Gerald Ford, and eventually retired as NATO supreme allied commander under President Bill Clinton. I ran for the presidency myself out of deep concern as the ill-considered Iraq War unfolded under President George W. Bush. My heart is with the men and women in uniform, as well as our veterans. It is that affinity that brings me to these observations.

President Trump believes he honors and respects the military. He praises our men and women constantly. “I don’t think anybody’s been more with the military than I have, as a president,” he told Chris Wallace on “Fox News Sunday.” He has appointed numerous generals to serve in his administration (“I have generals that are great generals”) and gained pay raises and hikes in defense spending. He fired the VA chief. He has a snappy salute and appreciates a good military parade, like the one he saw in France last year. He wants to be loved, respected and admired, no doubt.

But there is more to being commander in chief. He commands us, but he also represents us. The military is mission-oriented and values-based. The mission is protecting the United States, securing our freedoms, advancing our interests. The commander in chief sets the directions, makes the big decisions and inspires us to carry out the mission. And in his person and character, he represents the men and women who serve, as well as the veterans. He is actually our chief recruiter, too. We are loyal, regardless of which party is in power or who is in the Oval Office. We can’t be bought. We believe in selfless service, telling truth to power, choosing the harder right over the easier wrong. We honor noble sacrifice.

For Trump, trouble began on several of these fronts before he was even in office. He dismissed the service and sacrifice of Sen. John McCain and, by implication, all those who had suffered as prisoners of war. “He’s not a war hero,” Trump said while campaigning in Iowa. “I like people who weren’t captured.” He engaged in a back-and-forth with Khizr and Ghazala Khan, Gold Star parents whose son, Army Capt. Humayun Khan, died in combat. After Khizr Khan pointed out in an emotional speech at the Democratic National Convention that Trump had “sacrificed nothing, and no one,” Trump suggested that “Hillary’s script writers” were responsible for the speech and said that Khan had “viciously attacked” him. And there were the references to what “his” generals would do and be. “I see my generals, generals that are going to keep us so safe,” he said on Inauguration Day.

Didn’t he understand that good leaders are big-hearted, that they don’t bully and quarrel with those they outrank? And doesn’t he respect that generals are loyal to the Constitution and chain of command -- you can’t “own” them?

In the first military operation of his tenure, which Trump personally authorized, Navy SEAL William “Ryan” Owens was killed. Trump seemed to slough off the blame onto his predecessor, and his own secretary of defense, retired Gen. Jim Mattis.

“Well, this was a mission that started before I got here,” the president said on “Fox & Friends,” referring to the Obama administration before turning on his own team: “They explained what they wanted to do, the generals,” he said. “My generals are the most respected that we’ve had in many decades,” he added, “and they lost Ryan.”

Good leaders accept responsibility, especially when things go wrong. Commanders in chief do that.

He apparently didn’t know how to console the widow of Sgt. La David Johnson, killed in an ambush in Niger, and ended up in a partisan spat with a congresswoman who had heard Trump tell Myeshia Johnson “something to the effect that ‘he knew what he was getting into when he signed up, but I guess it hurts anyway.’ ”

Commanders in chief don’t do that.

Posturing and electioneering were evident in the call for a parade in Washington, since canceled, and the rush to deploy active-duty forces to the border to stem “an invasion” from the south. We don’t want to be used that way.

The president hasn’t yet visited our men and women in a combat zone -- not Afghanistan, Iraq or even along the DMZ in Korea. And last week, when he failed to visit the U.S. cemetery at Belleau Wood in France, where so many Americans gave their lives -- it was raining, and a long drive from Paris -- the criticisms exploded. Did he not understand that the troops and veterans want the president to see them where they work, to share in their hardships a little, and appreciate their sacrifices and risks?

“I’ve had an unbelievable busy schedule, and I will be doing it,” Trump said in the Fox interview on Sunday. I was in the ops center with the 1st Infantry Division in Vietnam, when President Nixon braved the rocket zone north of Saigon to see the troops. Yes, even Nixon.

But if Trump struggles with his role’s rites and rituals, there are deeper issues with his command. His blustering and combative diplomacy on Korea, cozying up with a potential adversary who has consistently worked to undermine the United States, and his pattern of insulting friends and disrupting allies are all deeply unsettling to the middle-grade and senior officers who plan and execute U.S. policy. They need steady, consistent, reliable leadership. The bobbing and weaving may work in a small family office, but he is now leading one of the largest, most structured organizations in the world -- and certainly the most powerful. It needs a steady hand, not just at secretary of defense, but also at the very top.

What actually drives Trump’s policies and actions as commander in chief? On what basis does he make the decisions that could separate us from our families, and send us to war? By all reports he doesn’t like to read, doesn’t suffer long briefings, doesn’t want to study, doesn’t seem to want much of the experience of the generals closest to him.

We honor the chain of command, so we trust him with the most central issues of our time -- war, peace, the nuclear button. But Russia is still bullying, North Korea is still polishing up its nuclear force, China is strengthening its position in the South China Sea, and Iran and the Islamic State are still there in the Middle East, while our oldest allies are cringing and disheartened.

In his campaign, Trump promised that only he knew how to lead America. In the field of national security the jury is still out.
 
Just watched this fox news clip (I know, haha, I peruse foxnews.com), and I'm confused.

https://fxn.ws/2FtkzCP

I thought fox newsers were his friend? They sure didn't sound like his friend...
 
The President’s gatemen this on Saudi Arabia.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-president-donald-j-trump-standing-saudi-arabia/

 
Remius said:
The President’s gatemen this on Saudi Arabia.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-president-donald-j-trump-standing-saudi-arabia/

Does anyone else think those exclamation marks were unneeded?
 
Infanteer said:
He's a Clinton backer...

For those of us without a Washington Post subscription
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/nov/20/wesley-k-clark-i-served-under-8-commanders-in-chie/
 
Dimsum said:
Does anyone else think those exclamation marks were unneeded?

What a fluff job.

The country of Iran, as an example, is responsible for a bloody proxy war against Saudi Arabia in Yemen, trying to destabilize Iraq’s fragile attempt at democracy, supporting the terror group Hezbollah in Lebanon, propping up dictator Bashar Assad in Syria (who has killed millions of his own citizens), and much more. Likewise, the Iranians have killed many Americans and other innocent people throughout the Middle East. Iran states openly, and with great force, “Death to America!” and “Death to Israel!” Iran is considered “the world’s leading sponsor of terror.”

On top of the civilian deaths caused from direct military action I've been told there's an estimated 500'000 civilian deaths in Iraq stemming from the sanctions the US placed on them. They ought to stop with the "killing their own people" line.

As for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia I think they would give Iran a run for their money when it comes to leading sponsoring terrorism. The former US secretary of state (via released emails) admitted the US was aware KSA was giving money and weapons to ISIS.


Trump seems to have conveniently forgotten that in his attempts to paint KSA as a buddy.
 
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