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I'd check out this thread...
It's "Don't Let This Happen" in Military Related by Jungle.
It's "Don't Let This Happen" in Military Related by Jungle.
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Armour
Guest
Yelling has it place , when a command or task is yelled as others have said it means RIGHT NOW!!!! unfortunately some have been coddled and rarely ever yelled at when a situation develops and the yelling starts the just give this lost blank look. I've seen it first hand and seen the difference between combat arm trades and support trades , No disrespect to then but it's the nature of the job. Being in Armour and having commands and turret drill yelled all the time it just becomes a second nature to hear and react.
It was in Bosnia on more than one occasion you could see the difference in reaction. When I was in Visioko and and rocket hit our building when the yelling started to take cover and stand too, I saw combat arms guy grabbing their rifle and kit even though they were not part of the defencive position ,while on more than one occasion support trades had to be told and directed to get in to the shelters and grab their helmets and protective vest. It was a night and day difference in their reactions.
I saw the same thing when a drive by at the front gate. There was even one Log Cpl that was ticked off that she was yelled at and pushed behind cover. even went so far as after the incident to tell the Tpr, there was no need to yell.
Take it or leave it, getting yelled at to carry out a command I'll take my chances of having a tougher louder experience and having it as a normal course of communication when needed then having a bewilder WTF is he yelling for reaction.
It was in Bosnia on more than one occasion you could see the difference in reaction. When I was in Visioko and and rocket hit our building when the yelling started to take cover and stand too, I saw combat arms guy grabbing their rifle and kit even though they were not part of the defencive position ,while on more than one occasion support trades had to be told and directed to get in to the shelters and grab their helmets and protective vest. It was a night and day difference in their reactions.
I saw the same thing when a drive by at the front gate. There was even one Log Cpl that was ticked off that she was yelled at and pushed behind cover. even went so far as after the incident to tell the Tpr, there was no need to yell.
Take it or leave it, getting yelled at to carry out a command I'll take my chances of having a tougher louder experience and having it as a normal course of communication when needed then having a bewilder WTF is he yelling for reaction.
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commando_wolf63
Guest
Sheila Molina what's your beef?? Yelling or being yelled at has it's time and place like WO I guess you can say I'm old school. If my instructors yelled at me it was for a good reason. FYI I'm a female and in my units both Reserve and Regs females were treated no different from the males we were all exected to carry our own weight. Armour I guess since my reserve BMT/GMT was done by an Infantry unit taught me to react like combat arms. When the S**t hit the fan we moved. If someone had to push me behind cover I wouldn't have been whining about it I'd have been thankful that someone was abit quicker than I was. I ask this if you dont like being yelled at when it comes to life or death why are you in the Military?
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There is a HUGE difference between yelling to achieve volume or urgency and yelling to accomplish a task, or in everyday situations.(administrative)
If a soldier is being professional in his duties, manners and deportment then there is no need to be abusive and condescending toward him.
If there is a problem with the soldier that requires a (verbal) swift kick in the @ss then that is very different.
Someone once told me that there are no bad soldiers, only bad leaders. I don't completely agree with that but I do believe it has a grain or two of truth to it.
Soldiers need to be tough and have the ability to "shrug off" situations that would have any normal civvie reaching for his complaint book. That being said, there is no requirement to intentionally abuse or belittle members of the CF if they are preforming to the standard.
Slim
If a soldier is being professional in his duties, manners and deportment then there is no need to be abusive and condescending toward him.
If there is a problem with the soldier that requires a (verbal) swift kick in the @ss then that is very different.
Someone once told me that there are no bad soldiers, only bad leaders. I don't completely agree with that but I do believe it has a grain or two of truth to it.
Soldiers need to be tough and have the ability to "shrug off" situations that would have any normal civvie reaching for his complaint book. That being said, there is no requirement to intentionally abuse or belittle members of the CF if they are preforming to the standard.
Slim
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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Theres always a time for yelling. Like was mentioned, during a highstress enviroment someone needs to yell to,
a. make themselves heard
b. let people know whos in command
c. let those your speaking to know your not just making a suggestion
In an admin/discipline situation i've always found it MUCH more intimidating when someone takes me aside and quietly scolds me instead of making me stand at attention and scream at me infront of everyone. (I CAN see how this will be effective when dealing with a new soldier however).
I've seen a lot of bad leaders try to use their rank or how loud they are to scare and intimidate troops (which often see right through it) yet i've seen very good leaders quietly tell a troop to "stop being an idiot" and it hit the troop like a brick.
a. make themselves heard
b. let people know whos in command
c. let those your speaking to know your not just making a suggestion
In an admin/discipline situation i've always found it MUCH more intimidating when someone takes me aside and quietly scolds me instead of making me stand at attention and scream at me infront of everyone. (I CAN see how this will be effective when dealing with a new soldier however).
I've seen a lot of bad leaders try to use their rank or how loud they are to scare and intimidate troops (which often see right through it) yet i've seen very good leaders quietly tell a troop to "stop being an idiot" and it hit the troop like a brick.
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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commando_wolf63 said:
EDIT - I see Ghost beat me to it, but anyway -
Oh come on guys, there ARE times when yelling is used by poor NCOs as a crutch. I remember a universally disliked NCO in my unit pulling up to the vehicle compound one day. We had at least ten minutes to kill and he wanted me to go see if the gate was locked. What does this NCO do? He reinforces his flinch-meister status by saying, "go check the fence." Fine enough, then he decided to bellow at the top of his lungs RRRUUUNNNNN!!!!!! He looked like a first prize moron, mainly because the fence was only 50 feet away. He wasn't exactly a PT king himself, oddly enough. Like I said, we were in no rush. I fought the urge to give him the deer in the headlights look DELIBERATELY, as if to say "what are you, stupid?", and did my best half-assed trot to the fence.
Whatever. He got very little extra effort out of me and at the same time cemented the idea that he was semi-retarded.
So, no, yelling isn't aways the best option.
Even General Patton knew that. During his early days as a junior officer, he once pulled his entire cavalry platoon aside and apologized for yelling at one of the men. He had said "run, damn you" instead of "run, damn it" and so he apologized, much to the surprise of his regular Army platoon.
Anyway, I'm not saying yelling is bad or not to yell, just emphasizing that it is not 100 percent necessary and a good leader will have to discern the good times to do it from the bad. All part of the skills that go into the art of leadership.
yelling, we always yelled in the Artillery thats the only way to be heard cause we are all deaf. as for yelling at new recruits it has its time and place if any one new SGT Major Sandall (Baggy Sandal) then you new that yelling was not in his nature but the man would put the fear of god into you by just his asking you in a quite tone how are you doing today Gunner or Bdr or Mbdr.The best leaders yell when need to and explain when need to. if you think telling all the time is the way to train and work with your troops then maybe you should think again. I like how the US trains it soldiers as explained above in a previous reply. as for all of the hard core individuals on here that like yell all the time I bet when you were just a private you hated it the most and dreaded the one NCO who yelled the most.How much did you learn from that individual I bet not alot other then they were an A$$ hole. Did it make you a better soldier? I dont know, but if your opinion of training is yelling all the time then I am in the wrong Military. As for any of the new troops comming up threw the ranks and are complaining about being yelled at well learn listen and extract the info that is being given you. good bad or ugly. You are now in a system that trains on killing people from the office clerk to the sailor to the airforce mechanic. sometimes we all forget this and we hide behind our trades that dont directly get our hands bloodied. yelling is an art of influencing human behaviour, as is talking in a calm clear and concise voice, as in influencing human behaviour is the art of leadership, we must look listen and learn. If you dont like to be yelled at then quit, if all you do is yell then you to must quit.
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Pugnacious
Guest
Che wrote:
"Oh how I long for the days of the Spartan-warrior class....
I'm thinking Infanteer will back me on this one."
P: True Spartans were the best at what they did, and prob' still better then even most around today, but keep in mind they fought well together largely in part because they feared loosing face , and acting a coward in front of a fellow "LOVER".
Not the sort of 'backing' I need thanx. LOL! ;D
Back to topic... I have a relative that made Lt Col in the Airborne way back in the old days of the cold war, and he did not raise his voice without good cause, and was very much admired, and respected by the men under his command. But then again as he says that it was a different Army in his day.
He also said Bullies eventualy get what is coming to them one way or the other.
He gave many fine examples that I can't mention here.
For me I'd rather follow in his footsteps, and be respected by my men and then feared by my enemies.
Cheers!
P.
"Oh how I long for the days of the Spartan-warrior class....
I'm thinking Infanteer will back me on this one."
P: True Spartans were the best at what they did, and prob' still better then even most around today, but keep in mind they fought well together largely in part because they feared loosing face , and acting a coward in front of a fellow "LOVER".
Not the sort of 'backing' I need thanx. LOL! ;D
Back to topic... I have a relative that made Lt Col in the Airborne way back in the old days of the cold war, and he did not raise his voice without good cause, and was very much admired, and respected by the men under his command. But then again as he says that it was a different Army in his day.
He also said Bullies eventualy get what is coming to them one way or the other.
He gave many fine examples that I can't mention here.
For me I'd rather follow in his footsteps, and be respected by my men and then feared by my enemies.
Cheers!
P.
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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Spartans may have been the best but they also let their society erode because they wouldn't change with the times.
I think the same idea holds true today. To most guys i know, myself included, getting extras or even charged is nothing compared to loosing face with your platoon or company.
I thought the term lover was a translation given to the childs mentor/teacher.
I think the same idea holds true today. To most guys i know, myself included, getting extras or even charged is nothing compared to loosing face with your platoon or company.
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Pugnacious
Guest
"I thought the term lover was a translation given to the child's mentor/teacher."
Yes and double yes, Spartan studies goes into great detail on the rigid codes of conduct for its warrior class, and such.
Marriage to a woman was for children only, the woman had to dress in men's garb, and hide her femininity as much as possible on the honeymoon night, after the husband went straight back to the barracks to be with his men as much as possible.
Lots have been written on this from a variety of reliable sources.
The Athenians also had a similar group with similar beliefs...who's name escapes me.
Also in Ancient Greek sociaty it was acceptable practice for the teacher to have "relations" with the students...male or female, but it seems that male was the preference. Langauge often follows culture.
And yes many scholars point to the eroding of their culture to their non-bending ways...many cultures have gone extinct from lack of flexibility...most notable the Roman Empire which came after the Greek Empire. We should pay attention to what history is saying.
Both empires where living in harsh brutal times, and trained equaly harsh brutal militaries, with harsh brutal results.
But history echos what mom always said, that no matter how big you are there is always someone bigger, and nastier.
Only a matter of time...Bullies get theirs.
Sorry to digress...Reading about ancient history is one of my silly hobbies.
A further thought is maybe if someone 'needs' to be yelled at all the time then they might lack the common sense, and healthy fear of letting down their commander, and fellow troops. Which IMHO is a sin...Or at least what I was raised to believe.
Cheers!
P.
Yes and double yes, Spartan studies goes into great detail on the rigid codes of conduct for its warrior class, and such.
Marriage to a woman was for children only, the woman had to dress in men's garb, and hide her femininity as much as possible on the honeymoon night, after the husband went straight back to the barracks to be with his men as much as possible.
Lots have been written on this from a variety of reliable sources.
The Athenians also had a similar group with similar beliefs...who's name escapes me.
Also in Ancient Greek sociaty it was acceptable practice for the teacher to have "relations" with the students...male or female, but it seems that male was the preference. Langauge often follows culture.
And yes many scholars point to the eroding of their culture to their non-bending ways...many cultures have gone extinct from lack of flexibility...most notable the Roman Empire which came after the Greek Empire. We should pay attention to what history is saying.
Both empires where living in harsh brutal times, and trained equaly harsh brutal militaries, with harsh brutal results.
But history echos what mom always said, that no matter how big you are there is always someone bigger, and nastier.
Only a matter of time...Bullies get theirs.
Sorry to digress...Reading about ancient history is one of my silly hobbies.
A further thought is maybe if someone 'needs' to be yelled at all the time then they might lack the common sense, and healthy fear of letting down their commander, and fellow troops. Which IMHO is a sin...Or at least what I was raised to believe.
Cheers!
P.
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Haha, I had to laugh at that because it's actually my silly life that consists of reading history (ancient and the like)
As I understood the ancient greek concept of love differed a great deal to what it is today, so it's hardly fair for us to apply our modern conept of Dirty Old men in love with young boys (NAMBLA anyone?) to the Ancient Greek ideals of platonic respect love etc....alright fine they had their funny little moments...but I wasn't talking about that anyway.
I was more or less referring to the idea that a large group or class of young men could be raised into a class of warrior. I'm not talking about anything on the scale of the movie "Soldier" but it would certainly eliminate any need for a discussion on how much it hurts inside to be yelled at.
Of course it's an idea that's completely full of holes, and open to attack from any modern angle using concepts of "Ethics" or "Morality" and is more or less evolved from my overly romanticized views of life in any historical situation I've ever studied or read about. Truthfully ancient Greece has never been a focal point for me, but picked up plenty peripherally...
Anyhow, back on topic, nothing to see here folks move along.
P
Pugnacious
Guest
;D
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I agree that sometimes JUNIOR junior NCM's are treated a little ridiculous, and I don't like the mentality of "well I was treated that way, so you should be". We have to face that this is the "new army" or so lots of people tell me, and we're kinder and gentler.
That being said, JUNIOR Junior NCM's should also be weary of the way they act and present themselves. Case in point....I was getting off yet another midnight shift at the "Ivory Towers" and caught the bus for my way home. Well entering the bus I noticed a young female no hook Pte sitting on the bus and thought nothing of it (I was understandably tired). Upon sitting down and closer examination, she had on pink Oakley sunglasses, a bright pink backpack slung over one shoulder, was chewing gum, and listening to a Discman. I am in no way a stickler for dress regs, but I had to say something about these numerous infractions. I approached her and inquired whether she knew about these regs, not in a rude or conceited manner whatsoever, and suggested that she may want to pay attention lest she bump into someone of a considerably higher rank and less approachable demeanour. She replied that I was "only a Corporal" and brushed me off. Now, this somewhat p**sed me off, however, I did an about face and made a mental note to try to email my buddy in the local Reserve unit to see if a Basic course was running and try to get in touch with her instructor. When she got off the bus, I watched as she did'nt put her beret on, slumped the backpack over one shoulder and sauntered off the bus, walking directly past a LCol without saluting.
Now.....when I joined the military and did my basic, I would'nt have pondered doing this in a million years. I remember being told that when one person looks sloppy, it reflects on the rest of the CF. I also remember that Ignorance is no excuse...and if a friendly Cpl had suggested that I change something, I definitely would have taken his/her advice and would never in a million years blow him/her off and be exceedingly rude. I must say that this somewhat flabbergasted me, I was in disbelief. Any thoughts?
That being said, JUNIOR Junior NCM's should also be weary of the way they act and present themselves. Case in point....I was getting off yet another midnight shift at the "Ivory Towers" and caught the bus for my way home. Well entering the bus I noticed a young female no hook Pte sitting on the bus and thought nothing of it (I was understandably tired). Upon sitting down and closer examination, she had on pink Oakley sunglasses, a bright pink backpack slung over one shoulder, was chewing gum, and listening to a Discman. I am in no way a stickler for dress regs, but I had to say something about these numerous infractions. I approached her and inquired whether she knew about these regs, not in a rude or conceited manner whatsoever, and suggested that she may want to pay attention lest she bump into someone of a considerably higher rank and less approachable demeanour. She replied that I was "only a Corporal" and brushed me off. Now, this somewhat p**sed me off, however, I did an about face and made a mental note to try to email my buddy in the local Reserve unit to see if a Basic course was running and try to get in touch with her instructor. When she got off the bus, I watched as she did'nt put her beret on, slumped the backpack over one shoulder and sauntered off the bus, walking directly past a LCol without saluting.
Now.....when I joined the military and did my basic, I would'nt have pondered doing this in a million years. I remember being told that when one person looks sloppy, it reflects on the rest of the CF. I also remember that Ignorance is no excuse...and if a friendly Cpl had suggested that I change something, I definitely would have taken his/her advice and would never in a million years blow him/her off and be exceedingly rude. I must say that this somewhat flabbergasted me, I was in disbelief. Any thoughts?
- Reaction score
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I think in a lot of units Cpls/LS are treated only a little better then Pte/AB/OS, I think that if that changed and it was seen to change then you would not see behaviour like that. Has to start changing from the top otherwise we are wasting our time.
You did what you could 291er not much else you can do without causing a scene.
You did what you could 291er not much else you can do without causing a scene.
P
Pugnacious
Guest
Well in my experience out side the Army I can say you can yell at dumb asses all day and still they will lack common sense.
If they don't have it in their heart then they need to make room for those that do. As they say in the SEALS..show them the bell.
IMHO this ladies lack of respect for the uniform, and lack of professionalism is very disturbing...here I'd kill to get in uniform, and be sworn in and she does that. ACK! Perhaps this might be something for her peers to deal with?
I have to research this, but I think the US Army is doing some good stuff, in the stuff I have seen they are using positive training methods, and only turn up the 'old school stuff' when you get into Navy seals, Ranger etc.
I know from being a dog trainer that direction works better then correction, and any animal can be trained more effectivly (humans also) if one spends the time catching the animal doing things right, and rewarding this behavour, and shaping this. Heavy correction leads to shut down of ALL behavours, and you loose the animals true personality , and drives. You need a subtle management system in place with this to prevent the behavours you don't want from becoming habit.
This is an art form.
With humans things get rather complex as it has been said that only we are capable of DENILE, and are highly manipulative as a species. Once again In this girls case I'd say her heart isn't in it, and or she has no Army role models to take after / look up to.
On the flip side I remember about 8 years back seeing a young lady in uniform taking the bus in Vancouver (prob'seaforth), and she was very proud of her uniform, and wore it well. I couldn't take my eyes of of her the whole trip...totaly flawless. Even her Blond hair tucked under her cap was perfect. And best yet was in her blue eyes one could see she was proud as well.
I hope she is still in and doing well.
So maybe there is hope.
P.
If they don't have it in their heart then they need to make room for those that do. As they say in the SEALS..show them the bell.
IMHO this ladies lack of respect for the uniform, and lack of professionalism is very disturbing...here I'd kill to get in uniform, and be sworn in and she does that. ACK! Perhaps this might be something for her peers to deal with?
I have to research this, but I think the US Army is doing some good stuff, in the stuff I have seen they are using positive training methods, and only turn up the 'old school stuff' when you get into Navy seals, Ranger etc.
I know from being a dog trainer that direction works better then correction, and any animal can be trained more effectivly (humans also) if one spends the time catching the animal doing things right, and rewarding this behavour, and shaping this. Heavy correction leads to shut down of ALL behavours, and you loose the animals true personality , and drives. You need a subtle management system in place with this to prevent the behavours you don't want from becoming habit.
This is an art form.
With humans things get rather complex as it has been said that only we are capable of DENILE, and are highly manipulative as a species. Once again In this girls case I'd say her heart isn't in it, and or she has no Army role models to take after / look up to.
On the flip side I remember about 8 years back seeing a young lady in uniform taking the bus in Vancouver (prob'seaforth), and she was very proud of her uniform, and wore it well. I couldn't take my eyes of of her the whole trip...totaly flawless. Even her Blond hair tucked under her cap was perfect. And best yet was in her blue eyes one could see she was proud as well.
I hope she is still in and doing well.
So maybe there is hope.
P.
B
buglog1
Guest
291er said:
Reminds me of the saying about one broken window on a nice street and before long it is a slum.
I think that your young Pte. will not be long in learning the ropes.
My little sister (in my head she is still 12) just finished her first summer as an O/Cdt at CFLRS. I got the impression that they held the instructors there in extremely high esteem for the most part. Perhaps they are not as 'in-your-face' as they would be with the NCMs, but she mentioned that she had a very loud one-way discussion with a French M/Cpl after she did not react to a french drill command.
I think that volume and intensity certainly have a time and a place. It is just one more tool for someone in a leadership role to make use of...but the occasion must be appropriate.
2 cents.
B
buglog1
Guest
Hi Pug - can you make some room in your PM folder? I have a note I would like to send your way.
Thanks!
Thanks!
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