Tim Hortons in Theatre Merged Thread (in AFG, no plans to preposition)

[The Bread Guy]

Canada "opened" a base in Kuwait?  I thought we were just using part of a U.S. base.  ???

Maybe they meant a "baselet"?

 

[Danjanou]

Maybe they meant a "baselet"?

kind of like the difference between a full sized Tims with seats and tables and those mini counter ones in the mall.  8)

 

[MJP]

Canada "opened" a base in Kuwait?  I thought we were just using part of a U.S. base.  ???

I think that was just they way they worded it, I remember hearing the same thing about Mirage and KAF in other news articles (not related to Tim's when they first appeared in the news.  We in the military know that we are simply moving into an already established base.  But it is easier for the general public to understand by saying we opened a base.

 

[The Bread Guy]

This from The Canadian Press:

The Department of National Defence is abandoning plans for three mobile, deployable Tim Hortons outlets, denying Canadian troops that familiar taste of home on future overseas missions.

As Canada's combat mission in Afghanistan was winding down in 2011, military officials proposed making it standard practice to have trailer-sized units on hand to sling coffee and donuts to soldiers.

A Tim's outlet at Kandahar Airfield, which operated for five years, generated $7.1 million in gross profit, much of which was plowed back into military support and services programs after expenses were paid.

The proposal to have trailers ready to go for other extended deployments was energetically endorsed by the country's overseas commander, according to documents obtained by The Canadian Press under the Access to Information Act.

"The potential availability of a Tim Hortons outlet for future missions will give ... additional flexibility to enhance the physical and emotional well-being of deployed personnel with a little taste from home," said a memo dated Dec. 14, 2011, which asked Lt.-Gen. Stuart Beare for his blessing.

Plans were so far advanced that the military's support services unit had planned to begin construction of the trailers sometime in January 2012, but they were cancelled before any work was started.

A defence spokeswoman, Lt. Michele Tremblay, said the coffee houses were "no longer required."

The proposal was initially drafted in the context of setting up a Tim's outlet to serve the 950 troops taking part in the Kabul training mission, she said.

The idea was abandoned when it was weighed against the $100,000 per trailer cost of construction, and the fact the units could be assembled within two months should future commanders decide they want one, Tremblay added.

The support services unit operates semi-independently from National Defence and is not funded by taxpayers ....

 

[Teager]

Well I can see why they have cancelled them and I suppose if Canada gets into another long duration war or peace keeping mission then there is the possibility of having one brought in. IMO they should have sent the Tims trailer that was in KAF and sent it to Kabul if logistics would allow that and if it would have been cheaper than the $100 000 to build.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'll bet there could be enough corporate sponsorship to have a couple produced, palletized and stored ready to go, without it costing DND or the CF a single thin dime.

It just take the cojones for someone to make it happen.

 

[dapaterson]

I'd be curious to see the detailed accounting that shows $7.1M in profit - I suspect there are some hefty hidden subsidies in there.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'd be curious to see the detailed accounting that shows $7.1M in profit - I suspect there are some hefty hidden subsidies in there.

No one cares about that shit as long as they get their coffee.

 

[UnwiseCritic]

:facepalm:

Haha wow I can't believe this was even an idea. Good to see what takes priority in the defence of Canada. Though I suppose two countries have never gone to war that have a timmies. This could be more effective than the f-35 program.

 

[Northalbertan]

I know out here in Alberta most guys I know would happily chip in to make sure the troops get their Timmies when deployed.


North Albertan

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Remember the Sally Ann wagons?

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Is it really that necessary?

Yeah I had a timmies the rare time I was in KAF, could I have survived without it? Absolutely. Are there people in the CF who would actually benefit from not having donuts or triple-triple coffees for 6 months? Again...absolutely.

The question this brings up, when seen in light of the brou-ha-ha that kicked off when they suggessted cutting hazard pay, is this:

'Is the CF a deployable, expeditionary mission oriented military force? Or a bloated, bureaucratic wagon train of commissaries, clerks and CANCAP employees with a thin, exhausted vanguard of fighting troops, that is more concerned with salaries/benefits and home comforts than actually achieving effects?'

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I dunno, from a 'morale of the troops' standpoint it makes sense to me.  If I had the choice of the "BMB igloo coffee" and a DD I'd likely go DD. 

I know where you guys are coming from, but does a Tim's coffee shop mean anything more than troops can get a Tim's coffee?

It's a QOL thing I guess.  We could dispense with the Tim's coffee, the Sat phones, the Internet, all kinds of things but to what effect (pos/neg) on morale and ppl's GAFF?

 

[UnwiseCritic]

'Is the CF a deployable, expeditionary mission oriented military force? Or a bloated, bureaucratic wagon train of commissaries, clerks and CANCAP employees with a thin, exhausted vanguard of fighting troops, that is more concerned with salaries/benefits and home comforts than actually achieving effects?'

Everyday we get closer to the latter.

 

[PAdm]

:facepalm:

Haha wow I can't believe this was even an idea. Good to see what takes priority in the defence of Canada. Though I suppose two countries have never gone to war that have a timmies. This could be more effective than the f-35 program.

So clearly you have no morale and welfare experience; leadership experience; corporate experience (meaning the management of DND); or small "P" politics experience.  The Kaf Tim's needs to be put into context - a long term Cdn commitment in which CF personnel were suffering. Canadians loved us, coalition partners appreciated us. Everyone wanted in on the support the troops action. The result is a freakishly rare corporate/public/non-public hybrid to have PSP staff run a Tim's franchise in a war zone. It ticked 101 boxes. You will not see this again until we again commit to an e.g. 10 year mission. A 2 roto stint in Haiti will not see a Tim's pop up. I made the expectation management comment to one of the head shed behind the entire KAF Tim's deal and stated that it will be a roto 0 question next time.

All this said for me to conclude that Tim's was an excellent time and place situation with no downside for the troops. We do not need trailers packed for next time, but please do not dismiss the idea or the fact that we consider it as stupid or a poor priority. It was a big deal and made a difference. Happy troops are focused troops. You need to add more and more as one roto stretches into many more.

 

[DirtyDog]

So clearly you have no morale and welfare experience; leadership experience; corporate experience (meaning the management of DND); or small "P" politics experience.  The Kaf Tim's needs to be put into context - a long term Cdn commitment in which CF personnel were suffering. Canadians loved us, coalition partners appreciated us. Everyone wanted in on the support the troops action. The result is a freakishly rare corporate/public/non-public hybrid to have PSP staff run a Tim's franchise in a war zone. It ticked 101 boxes. You will not see this again until we again commit to an e.g. 10 year mission. A 2 roto stint in Haiti will not see a Tim's pop up. I made the expectation management comment to one of the head shed behind the entire KAF Tim's deal and stated that it will be a roto 0 question next time.

All this said for me to conclude that Tim's was an excellent time and place situation with no downside for the troops. We do not need trailers packed for next time, but please do not dismiss the idea or the fact that we consider it as stupid or a poor priority. It was a big deal and made a difference. Happy troops are focused troops. You need to add more and more as one roto stretches into many more.

Apple and oranges, I know, but if all the time and money that was put into Timmies was directed into, say, getting us better kit, I'm sure a lot more fighting troops would be happier.  I indulged a couple of times, thought the novelty of it all was kinda fun, but I really could of cared less. I was more focused on doing my job than worrying about when my next coffee run was.

 

[UnwiseCritic]

So clearly you have no morale and welfare experience; leadership experience; corporate experience (meaning the management of DND); or small "P" politics experience.  The Kaf Tim's needs to be put into context - a long term Cdn commitment in which CF personnel were suffering. Canadians loved us, coalition partners appreciated us. Everyone wanted in on the support the troops action. The result is a freakishly rare corporate/public/non-public hybrid to have PSP staff run a Tim's franchise in a war zone. It ticked 101 boxes. You will not see this again until we again commit to an e.g. 10 year mission. A 2 roto stint in Haiti will not see a Tim's pop up. I made the expectation management comment to one of the head shed behind the entire KAF Tim's deal and stated that it will be a roto 0 question next time.

All this said for me to conclude that Tim's was an excellent time and place situation with no downside for the troops. We do not need trailers packed for next time, but please do not dismiss the idea or the fact that we consider it as stupid or a poor priority. It was a big deal and made a difference. Happy troops are focused troops. You need to add more and more as one roto stretches into many more.

Yes clearly I know nothing.

By all means do it, not on my tax paying money, not on CF members time or CF resources.

I know I would be happier being issued better kit. Had more range time. And from what I understand the majority of people who needed a good morale boost maybe got Tim's once or twice in a tour. And the ones who had it at their constant disposal, well let's just say they could do without it for a few months.

As for the politics of it...who cares. VIPs and such go to Afghanistan to "Support the troops". Yes visiting them on Christmas making them work even more, and keeping them from doing there actual job. Good support, "do you sleep better at night now?". If you really want to help them how about ask them what they need to do their job better. I highly doubt they will ask for Tims.

Yes having these people there can raise awareness and these people do have good intentions, just a little misguided. Just ask the soldiers "how can I help?" without getting your pr moment.

 

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

So clearly you have no morale and welfare experience; leadership experience; corporate experience (meaning the management of DND); or small "P" politics experience. 

Here's what an experienced General Officer had to say about the abundance of non-warfighting bumph there was on giant bases such as KAF: "this is a war zone – not an amusement park". 

Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/25/us-commander-afghanistan-bans-burger-pizza

Don't be so quick to dismiss the ideas of those whose experience of the war was *more austere than that of others.

*edit- typo.

 

[GnyHwy]

PAdm,

We love your efforts, but we must keep it in context or relation, or at least, we must keep it real.

As much as I appreciate Timmie's, I will always take a 12 hour old, bottom of the pot, tar type liquid coffee in a heart beat.

Soldiers need bullets, water, food and fuel, in that order.

 

[dimsum]

A positive side effect of Timmys in Kandahar (or presumably any other theatre) is the international goodwill that it generates.  On my second tour there (after Timmys had closed down), this exchange happened at least once every few days:

Coalition/Contractor:  A Canadian?!  Are you guys coming back?
Me:  No, it's just a few of us on exchanges with other coalition partners.
Them:  Too bad.  I miss the Tim Hortons.

It got to the point that if they knew a) Canadians were there in force and b) which Timmys was in operation at the time (Boardwalk v. New Canada House), I knew they were "true" KAF veterans.  The US and UK folks, in particular, were sad that it closed down when we moved up to Kabul.