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Tour After Tour After Tour - The Reality of PTSD.

msnoddon said:
Because chances are that if he only has one gong hanging off his CF's he hasn't been anywhere longer than 30 days.  Don't get me wrong, tours aren't the say all and end all of a person's level of competence, far from it.  Chances are you have an idea of the person's background that's interviewing you, and if not, that further reinforces what I am trying to say.

My point wasn't that one should speak only with those who were on the same mission, but simply that a little relevant background would help.  There's a bit of a generation gap between a buck private and the MWO, and I doubt during the interview he's going to start opening up about all the after-effects he is experiencing.  So a facilitator who has been in a similar situation might help some people to open up.

So the guy sitting there with only a CD and a Wound Stripe on his sleeve, because he suffered a Mine Strike on his second week in Theatre loosing two limbs, doesn't cut it by your definition?  In other words, unless the guy has a chest full of medals, he has no concept of what went on?
 
George Wallace said:
So the guy sitting there with only a CD and a Wound Stripe on his sleeve, because he suffered a Mine Strike on his second week in Theatre loosing two limbs, doesn't cut it by your definition?  In other words, unless the guy has a chest full of medals, he has no concept of what went on?
That's not at all what I said.  Read past the first line. 

I simply gave a generic example.  No need to analyse it ad nauseum.  If you think the interviews are effective, that's fine, but based on recent experience I disagree.
 
George, lay off  a little will ya.  Dr Mindbender has a very valid point.  The Canadian female officer in theater that spoke to us post -incident was in way over her head despite her  education and qualifications.  The American Sgt. younger and with combat experience at the same debriefing was getting alot more discussion.  He also didn't get angry at us when we got a little confrontational.  Obviously a person will open up more to a person with similar experiences.  Having only a CD gong on a uniform is a good quick indicator.  A CD and a wound stripe is very different.  You ought to know better.
 
Thought I was finished but now I'm not so sure.
Padres are great people, and yes most have tour time.  So do 1500 soldiers that never saw the outside of Kandahar Airfield. (KAF).  Their experiences are not Similar in the least.  Don't get me wrong, I am not on a high horse, honestly I hated nearly every moment of that tour.  Truth is they are just sending the wrong people to talk to us.  One mental health officer they actually sent to us in the dirt broke down crying when he saw our living conditions.  He had just arrived from Canada.  Similarity of circumstances and experience is essential.
 
Jay4th said:
 Similarity of circumstances and experience is essential.

Bingo.

If speaking to someone is going to be effective, they have to be able to tell the recieving person exactly how they are reacting to a situation. If most of the time is spent explaining acronyms, circumstances, locations and other environmental background info, there is a risk of the issue becoming obscured in the details.

If people are going to open up and discuss their problem, it has to be with an individual who actually has some credibility in the eyes of the speaker. MH professionals without an in-depth knowledge of living conditions, tactical considerations and ROE have a steep learning curve in addition to the difficulty of treating an individual.
 
And this, gentlemen, is why peer debriefing is essential, whether that be by formal or informal debriefs. Don't sluff away that resource. If you are in the CoC, get your guys on those peer debriefing courses so that your guys have a little training to talk to the other members of your platoon and company when they been in the crap.
 
Armymedic, +1  Peer debriefing all good, and we have a few qualified dudes.
 
I agree.  Peer debriefing should be stressed and start 'immediately' after any action/incident.  I have a real hate on for the 'Reformed Alcoholics' who have killed the Messes.  The Messes, as an institution, do have a purpose and they have evolved over the centuries, but in the last twenty or so years the PC in the CF have seen no purpose in them.  They were where a group could gather after a hard day, shitty patrol or whatever and get things off their chests and start the healing process. 

A buddy of mine lead the Medics responding to the Hercs that crashed rehearsing for the Air Show in Edmonton, years ago.  After picking up body parts at the crash site, he got the whole works (of his medics) into the Mess to 'debrief'. 

When we went 'Dry' in Bosnia, a lot of the guys were coming in after a shitty patrol or Body Exchange, and what did the 'Kool-aide Bde' have to offer them on their return to camp......Nothing.  A can of Coke or two and a restless nights sleep.  I doubt that that ever relieved anyone's stress. 

I watched as a friend who I had put through Depot, got loaded in a Land Rover by the medics and sent home.  What set him off I don't know.  What happened to him after was a disgrace.  What was worse was the way that his former 'friends' and Troop mates shunned him.  The system in the mid 90's let him down.  He landed up getting out.  He has returned to the CF and seems to be doing well, from what I have heard. 

The Mess is an institution where the initial 'healing' can be facilitated prior to bringing in the 'experts'. 

I am sure that much will also come out in "Grunts in the Mists" and the 'storytelling' around the campfire antidotes.

 
George, I am still waiting for publication info from Anne Irwin. I havent forgotten.
 
bump to jay, nothing like sitting in a room listening to ppl complain about how their AC went tits up or the DFAC ran outta icecream, or how hard they heard it 'musta' been outside the wire,

other than that glitch the decompression stuff was ok, except i think we 'broke' our listener person ( dont know her title ) which leads back to ppl who havent seen what we've seen shouldnt really be listening to what our deepest darkest thoughts are, the americans use combat vets, because they can relate

no disrespect to our medical staff in cyprus, they were fantastic, just saying if you got guys trying to get someting off their mind, and the host has mini meltdowns every few minutes.........not kewl eh

if you have problems stick with your friends, especially the ones who were there with you and can relate
if you dont have friends get a dog, great listeners, but dont handle it on you own one way or the other
the medical staff honestly do try to help...i think...but i know very few ppl who get out of the medical cycle once they go in, dunno why, numerous reasons i guess

finished steven pressfields 'afghan campaign' a book about alexander in a-stan, his men had the same problems then as we do today, i mean mentally as well as the warfighting ( great read btw)

 
First things first - aside from road-trips to Knox to play video games, and despite 20+ years in, I've never been outside Canada, much less outside the wire. I have no idea what you bastards went through.

That said, I've crawled bare-ass through the barbed wire of depression and anxiety, with resulting cardiac effects. It took years to realise I wasn't lazy, idle, useless. It took years to recover. I'm not too different from a diabetic, or an alcoholic, in that this is something I will be dealing with - including low-grade daily medication - most likely for the rest of my life.

For the fellows who are suffering, for the ones who are only starting to REALISE they are suffering - The single hardest thing to realise is, just because it's all in your head doesn't mean you're making it up. You actually are sick. Physically, chemically, hormonally. This is a medical condition. You aren't slack. You aren't just f'ing around. You need help.

The dork I got as a therapist couldn't find his own ass with a flashlight and minetape, but he was useful to vent at. Once I got the initial pressure off with him, I could talk with friends and family. I still have my grey days, but they are fewer and farther between.

Get help. It will hurt. It will suck. You will feel better for it.

Good luck.

 
boondocksaint said:
except i think we 'broke' our listener person ( dont know her title ) which leads back to ppl who havent seen what we've seen shouldnt really be listening to what our deepest darkest thoughts are, the americans use combat vets, because they can relate

no disrespect to our medical staff in cyprus, they were fantastic, just saying if you got guys trying to get someting off their mind, and the host has mini meltdowns every few minutes.........not kewl eh

Sorry to intrude on your conversation gentleman, but I have a general question.  Is there any training (or plans to train) folks like you who've now returned from being outside the wire?  You point to the American way working much better, and perhaps the Army could put your experience to good use in helping out our fellow soldiers who will, undoubtably, be facing the same thing a few months down the road that you had to.  You guys may be the best thing for them when that time comes.

[edit sp]
 
Infanteer said:
Sorry to intrude on your conversation gentleman, but I have a general question.  Is there any training (or plans to train) folks like you've who've now returned from being outside the wire?  You point to the American way working much better, and perhaps the Army could put your experience to good use in helping out our fellow soldiers who will, undoubtably, be facing the same thing a few months down the road that you had to.  You guys may be the best thing for them when that time comes.

Now that is a great idea - and it may well bear fruit.  All we need is some volunteers.  I will definitely follow up on this one.

Dave
 
PPCLI Guy said:
Now that is a great idea - and it may well bear fruit.  All we need is some volunteers.  I will definitely follow up on this one.

Dave

Cough***Cough ...OSISS is a phneomenal place to start Dave, great help for me, and made of of previous memebers that have suffered...


dileas

tess
 
OSISS will most likely be a great assistence; they came in a delivered an outstanding OSI lecture to us a while back - but from what I can gather from the conversation here, soldiers from the 1VP Battlegroup that just returned and have stomped the same ground and been around the exact same sights, sounds, and experiences may make the perfect debriefers for the next round of decompression.

Anyways, just my humble suggestion - I'll let the conversation continue.

Cheers,
Infanteer
 
the osiss folks were great, some of our ( ppl who lived outside the wire 90ish% of the time ) concerns were debriefing with ppl who had no frame of reference to our experiences, the folks hosting the various briefs were great, but didnt have much frame of reference either

the were the ppl who told us how the americans are working their post tour decompression, and are trying their best to model it after that program

i dont think there are plans to train any of us for any type of program, but i could be wrong, i believe there are some folks who have an aptitude for this type of thing, and their experience could be used during the decompression cycle, i woulda felt more comfortable talking about stuff with someone who had 'lived it' as well, and this was the consensus from most of us and was relayed in the feedback portion

again not to take away from the osiss folks, great ppl, who put up with alot of our drunken shinnanigans, and this was definitly a great building block to a good program

chuck

 
boondocksaint said:
i dont think there are plans to train any of us for any type of program, but i could be wrong, i believe there are some folks who have an aptitude for this type of thing, and their experience could be used during the decompression cycle, i woulda felt more comfortable talking about stuff with someone who had 'lived it' as well, and this was the consensus from most of us and was relayed in the feedback portion

Chuck,

There may not currently be a plan to train ppl to do this, but there could easily be one if it made sense. - and that is the key to all of this.  PM inbound.
 
I think it would be a great idea and i would be the first to put my name in! I think " outside the wire" soldiers would feel more at ease if like minded types are debriefing them. I talked to the American MH staff in KAF and they were the greatest due to the fact that most if not all had been to Iraq and Afghanistan a few times and seen first hand the effects. When i returned to Edm the civiy MH people didn't even know what IED, RPG and KAF meant so yeah it was rough and very very frustrating as my rants to Jay4Th and Boondock can attest too.

Rob
 
This is sounding exactly what needs to be done.

But, please note, PTSD manifests itself much after the fact.  This is caused by lack of follow up, and bad or no treatment, months and even years down the line.

We also have to find a way to implent follow up talks, visits and interviews to ensure all is well.  This is what will help PTSD minimize, if not appear in the troop at all.

This is where we have to concentrate on.  ell after the fact when the tour, and the soldier is but a memory.

dileas

tess
 
the 48th regulator said:
But, please note, PTSD manifests itself much after the fact.  This is caused by lack of follow up, and bad or no treatment, months and even years down the line. We also have to find a way to implent follow up talks, visits and interviews to ensure all is well.  This is what will help PTSD minimize, if not appear in the troop at all. This is where we have to concentrate on.  ell after the fact when the tour, and the soldier is but a memory.

Out of all the comments, Tess has it best.  While some cases are identified immediately, I have read that most cases dont occur until years later. 

I went through the assessments after each tour same as everyone else.  Zip, nadda to report, you're good to go, soldier on. 

Years later, Ive retired and moved on.  Yet I still find myself suffering on occasion from insomia over past events, nights when I relive past events and endure a smouldering rage over how events occurred, rage that lasts for days and days until I finally do something to get over it like shovelling a ton of dirt or building something.  All my agression goes through my arm to a hammer to a nail into wood.  At the end Im exhausted but the rage is gone.  Until the next time. 

Fortunately I have never been physically angry or abusive with my family, but both my wife and son know that there are times when they just shouldnt say anything to me while Im in one of my 'moods'.   On the last occasion, I smouldered for days like a volcano about to burst.  My son said to my wife (she told me this later) 'why doesnt he just get mad and shout and get over it?'.  They see the signs and know that Im looking for an argument, a way to release my anger.   

Treatment?  With who? First I would have to acknowledge that I have PTSD, which I dont think I do, but have many symptoms of.  I must be old school, its a 'weakness' I dont want to confront.  Second, who would I talk to?  Some smiling face at a local base?  Another person who has no idea of the work I did or what I went through?  Third, and tell them what?  Like many others here, there are some jobs and deployments we cant talk about unless that smiling face has the clearance or the background to understand the work we did.   

I found my own solution.  Here, at Army.ca. where soldiers with similiar service, background, and experience understand what Im saying. 

In the end, the soldier is a memory, but the memory hasnt gone away.
 
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