Transgender in the CF (merged)

[Bruce Monkhouse]

No snarkiness, just honest questions:

1. I'm not sure which field you're referring to, could you please elaborate?

2. And do you mean to imply that, with these knew regulations, a significant number of men are going to start wearing women's clothing just so they can claim that they identify as women, all with the goal of being able to go into the women's bathrooms?

1. Corrections. [ and a majority of the last 10 years with SO's]
2.YES! 

 

[GR66]

I think that some/much of the confusion/concern/debate comes from the de-linking of "Gender Identity" and "Sexual Orientation" as identified by Andraste.

Most of the male/female differentiations in our society are based solely on the physical gender of the individual.  Do you have male parts or female parts?  Sexual Orientation does not factor in to this.  Homosexual males and females do not identify as the opposite gender on their ID.  Lesbians do not have separate bathrooms from Hetro-women. 

As a result I think that most people don't have a huge issue with the "traditional" (?) transsexual scenario.  A male/female identifies as a female/male, is sexually attracted to the same sex and transitions to the opposite sex (accepting that there may be a wide spectrum of transition...from merely dressing as the opposite sex all the way to full gender re-assignment surgery depending on their situation and choices).

I think many more people are confused/concerned when you have someone whos "Gender Identity" does NOT match their "Sexual Orientation".  The proverbial "Lesbian trapped in a man's body".  I'd imagine that in cases where such an individual opts for a physical transformation (wherever along the spectrum) to live as a member of the opposite sex then there would be a bit more acceptance than for someone who chooses to live as their "physical" gender.

It raises some very interesting questions about what "Gender" really is.  If a genetic male lives as a male and has no desire to live as a female and has the sexual orientation traditionally viewed as "male", then when he self-identifies as being female is it actually the case that they are being viewed by society as the incorrect gender (since they feel they are actually female), or are they possibly really saying that the way they "think" (for lack of a better term) or act is much more closely aligned with what our culture traditionally identifies as "female" thinking/behaviour than it is with what our culture traditionally defines as "male" thinking/behaviour?

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=AbdullahD]

p.s Jarnhammer I saw your post and feel I have adequately addressed it in the other thread regarding people who leave Islam. Furthermore I dont wish to derail this thread, so thats why I didnt respond.
[/quote]

No worries Abdullah! I wasn't trying to make a jab but rather reaffirm how silly that notion is today (and agree with the context you put it here).



Andraste  I have an off the wall question I'd like to get your opinion on.  What do you think of "animal-kin"? Do you think they're are doing it for attention or do you think they genuinely believe they're half-animal? (or half whatever)  Do you think they should be given any sort of special considerations because of their beliefs?

 

[mariomike]

Andraste  I have an off the wall question I'd like to get your opinion on.  What do you think of "animal-kin"? Do you think they're are doing it for attention or do you think they genuinely believe they're half-animal? (or half whatever)  Do you think they should be given any sort of special considerations because of their beliefs?

That was discussed back around Reply #214.

The consensus seemed to be, 1) "Moot point...the CAF doesn't recruit animals (real or fictional)...".

2 ) "Horseshit!  Your argument has nothing whatsoever to do with a legitimate debate about transgendered persons and the CF.  If there are individuals out there who so vehemently insist that they are something other than the species "Homo sapiens" that they want to be accommodated in their belief, the likelihood that they would be enrolled is slim;  the CF only enrols human beings (them being the only species currently acceptable - all else is property)."

 

[ballz]

That was discussed back around Reply #214.

The consensus seemed to be, 1) "Moot point...the CAF doesn't recruit animals (real or fictional)...".

2 ) "Horseshit!  Your argument has nothing whatsoever to do with a legitimate debate about transgendered persons and the CF.  If there are individuals out there who so vehemently insist that they are something other than the species "Homo sapiens" that they want to be accommodated in their belief, the likelihood that they would be enrolled is slim;  the CF only enrols human beings (them being the only species currently acceptable - all else is property)."

I, for one, would still be interested in hearing Andraste's answer. It's a tangent for sure, but given her unique vantage point from which most of us cannot see from and excellent articulation, she may just blow us away with another enlightening post.

 

[mariomike]

I, for one, would still be interested in hearing Andraste's answer. It's a tangent for sure, but given her unique vantage point from which most of us cannot see from and excellent articulation, she may just blow us away with another enlightening post.

I even find Andraste's posts on administration enlightening. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

That was discussed back around Reply #214.

The consensus seemed to be, 1) "Moot point...the CAF doesn't recruit animals (real or fictional)...".

2 ) "Horseshit!  Your argument has nothing whatsoever to do with a legitimate debate about transgendered persons and the CF.  If there are individuals out there who so vehemently insist that they are something other than the species "Homo sapiens" that they want to be accommodated in their belief, the likelihood that they would be enrolled is slim;  the CF only enrols human beings (them being the only species currently acceptable - all else is property)."

 

The CAF used to send NIS to investigate members who they suspected were homosexuals. Our investigative police used to sift through peoples garbage looking for used condoms, spank mags or whatever. If back then you would have said the CAF would champion gender neutral bathrooms in order to accommodate males/females who identified as females/males (whether they have the parts or not) I'm sure many would call "horse shit" too.

It's easy to pass off my question as a non-issue or something that will never happen but we can't be sure of that can we? There ARE people in our society who identify as that stuff.  There are people who identify as having both genders at the same time (who could be a straight female, gay male), no gender, tri-gender.  When you do a bit of reading there seems to be dozens of variations of all this gender-identity stuff.  Since the CAF reflects society this could be something we deal with in the future.

I'm asking because from what I'm understanding of this we're to accept that Andraste was born physically a male but her brain says woman. Why shouldn't we accept what an animal-kins brain is telling them?

.the CAF doesn't recruit animals

I could have sworn I heard someone at work saying the dogs they used had ranks (and in this case the dog  outranked him). I'll get clarification  ;D

 

[Andraste]

Wow . . . leave a thread for a few days on TD and it explodes in all sorts of directions.  I will do my best to respond to all but will need a bit of time as I have some pressing matters at work to deal with. So as some will understand . . . wait out.

Cheers

Andraste

 

[mariomike]

I will do my best to respond to all but will need a bit of time as I have some pressing matters at work to deal with.

 

[Lumber]

This is your best post yet...

 

[vonGarvin]

Ok. Enough.
Dude, you are not female in spite of your beliefs and surgery.
You did not gain 5 years life expectancy.
Your DNA did not change.
Your pheremones did not change.
Your risk of prostate cancer didn't go away (unless maybe they removed it, I guess)
Ovarian cancer isn't a risk.
You had surgery and probably hormonal treatment. And yes, if you have sex with men, you are also homosexual.

That you choose to live your life accirding to the social norms associated with women is none of my business. That you call yourself female is delusional and mocks the very nature of human beings everywhere, and suggests that you assert that the differences between men and women is merely superficial.
A woman in the US "identified" as black and was roundly mocked. You and she are equally delusional, but it doesn't prevent either of you from living a life with which you identify.  She can have black friends, use black vernacular,  listen to black music and even watch black movies (whatever any of that stuff really means), and thats ok.
But she's not black.
And you're not a woman.

 

[GAP]

Ok. Enough.
~~~~~~~
And you're not a woman.

That about sums it up...... :goodpost:

 

[Andraste]

Ok. Enough . . . And you're not a woman.

That about sums it up...... :goodpost:

Well, I am assuming this is meant for me. While you are certainly entitled to your opinion (both of you) I guess I am entitled to mine.

You both make a mockery of decent human beings and if you are in the military perhaps you should read the military ethos and take it to heart because you definitely don't belong in the CAF.  Respect to all folks, dignity and whatnot . . . interesting concepts so learn them.  Perhaps some day when you exceed the emotional level of a 5 year old you will be ready for polite company.

Good luck with your sad view on life and if you are in the CAF and should you see me the proper respect paid will be "Ma'am"  [

Regards

Andraste

 

[Lumber]

That you call yourself female is delusional and mocks the very nature of human beings everywhere, and suggests that you assert that the differences between men and women is merely superficial.

Actually, she's done nothing of the sort, she's asserted the exact opposite; that the difference between men and women is engrained in our very sense of being. The fact that she has not decided to undergo gender reassignment surgery further demonstrates that she does not assert a connection between outward "superficial" appearance and the inward idea of self.

You clearly don't buy into the idea that sex and gender are two different aspects that don't always go hand in hand. That's fine, to each his own, I suppose. I'll just leave these here:

"Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth, may do so not just due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains, or prenatal exposure to hormones"
- Gunter Heylens, MD, Department of Sexology and Gender Problems, Ghent University Hospital, Ghent 9000, Belgium.

"In some circumstances, an individual's assigned sex and gender do not align, and the person may be transgender..."
- Prince, Virginia. 2005. "Sex vs. Gender." International Journal of Transgenderism. 8(4).

 

[Andraste]

Thank you for your post. You certainly know your stuff! I have to admit I am going to have to think through the idea some more.

The biological theory for the biochemical reaction at the 8 week mark is certainly interesting. If true, there may be a possible intervention during the 8 week mark to ensure that the proper amount of TDT shows up when it is supposed to potentially eliminating the chance for a girl-brain in a boy-body. All done with my magical sci-fi medical imagination, but it's hard to say it's impossible to do if there is a physical cause/effect. Acceptance of others is great! Perhaps we could also be focusing on prevention, if it was possible? Just a thought.

Hi all,

Well since I have dealt with the peanut gallery above I can focus on the actual questions vice nonsensical rants.  I read through the posts last night and decided rather than use a very long post to respond; I will take each theme in turn and respond as there were a few different tangents.

Pieman I want to start by saying I am not hacking on your post as you bring up a valid point for discussion so please don't take it the wrong way.  [

Firstly I just want to confirm that my post about a plausible reason why transgender people are the way they are, is just a hypothesis.  Specifically there is no body of research to support the hypothesis because the science does not exist to confirm so it is all just conjecture.  In addition while it may be a plausible explanation, it does not take into account that several extraneous variables (biologically and socially) can feed into it.  So it is highly unlikely that any one thing creates a transgender person. 

However, in keeping with the theme of “if you could prevent someone from being transgender, would you?”  Well, I can say from a personal point of view I would not wish this on my worst enemy.  It is emotionally draining, socially exasperating and you gain nothing from it.  I would love to wake up in the morning and go about my business on a daily basis and not have to worry if some d-bag is going to take exception to me and start following me around the mall calling me “tranny-fag” (happened folks).  Or have four stellar examples of human cowards sucker punch me in a parking lot then proceed to kick me senseless (three broken ribs, several nice bruises, and a sprained back)  because one of their girlfriends saw me use the women’s bathroom.

Having said that, I am who I am and I accept that because the good people in the world, those who empathize and see the person, not some weirdo . . . outnumber the d-bags.  The guy who followed me around the mall was ejected by mall security when several people complained about his rude behavior.  The four guys who tooled me up, were stopped by three men who happened to be passing by.  I did not ask for this but I accept it in me.  Folks self-acceptance is the hardest road to travel when you are trans because I hated myself so bad I got to a very dark place.  So I live with it and relish each day I can be who I was meant to be.

When people give me a hard time for being trans (happens now and then), I always say to them “Got it, I am a transwoman.  So how does that affect you personally? How does me being out in the world somehow make your life more difficult?"  For the most part I get “crickets” from these folks and from others I get references to religion or my kind should be eliminated because we are perverse . . . that is my life folks and it is not fun. But again … how does my existence change the axil rotation of the earth? Short answer . . . it doesn't.

Now I understand why you might want to “prevent/cure/whatever” this in your children so they have a leg up sort to speak.  So let’s say the science exists to do so.  If the science exists to change that then it would also exist to change other things which would give your kids a leg up in life.  So why not make your children tall, good looking, athletic, slim, smart, great teeth or whatever.  After all short, squat, overweight, flabby, unfit, average intelligent people . . . well who needs these pimply faced kids . . . my boy or girl is going to be a superstar and reap all the benefits.  The one thing about this scenario is if the technology/science exists someone is going to make money on it and who will benefit . . . the rich.  So your average person might not be able to afford turning their son into Brad Pitt or daughter into Angelina Jolie but the rich will.  So not to get all “Gattica” here, you will eventually have a genetically modified super race and a disenfranchised serving class.  Not a world I want to live in folks.  What you are talking about is Eugenics and that can never go well.

We (trans folk) don’t need curing (and I am not saying that is what is being implied in the post but a general statement).  We need understanding, acceptance and the ability to just be seen as who we are . . . people who have the right to be treated with the same decency you expect you would expect.

Cheers

Andraste

 

[Andraste]

Hi all,

Well since I have dealt with the peanut gallery above I can focus on the actual questions vice nonsensical rants. 

Lumber . . . I was not referring to your post above as it came in just before I posted.  I was referring to the other two folks above you. 

Andraste

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Well, I am assuming this is meant for me. While you are certainly entitled to your opinion (both of you) I guess I am entitled to mine.

You both make a mockery of decent human beings and if you are in the military perhaps you should read the military ethos and take it to heart because you definitely don't belong in the CAF.  . . . interesting concepts so learn them.  Perhaps some day when you exceed the emotional level of a 5 year old you will be ready for polite company.

Good luck with your sad view on life and if you are in the CAF and should you see me the proper respect paid will be "Ma'am"  [

RegardsRespect to all folks, dignity and whatnot

Andraste

You know, your posts were informative and balanced on a relatively new and perhaps sensitive subj for people in the CAF.

But, with this post, I am sorry to say but you just lost your credibility.  Military ethos doesn't state that serving mbr's are not allowed to have and express their opinions.  Was the post blunt?  Sure.  Does that make it 'wrong'?  Not by a long shot.

Your response?  Digression to name calling, elementary school playground junk.  And why?  Because someone doesn't agree with YOUR point of view on a subj that you are 101% biased on for personal reasons.  It's horseshit.  And IF you are of a rank and position in the CAF to be called Ma'am, you should be above the level of thinking you demonstrated in that one post. 

Is your post the 'CAF example" of the very same military ethos you wrote?   

No one likes a hypocrite, people who don't agree with YOUR biased stance on this issue aren't "whatever politically correct term is the flavour of the day".  What are they doing?  Enjoying the rights and freedoms afforded to ALL Canadian citizens, even the ones who don't agree with your thoughts.

If you are a ma'am, you are supposed to be capable of critical thinking and respectful discourse/discussion/debate on any subj.  Looks like a big 'fail' on that one at this point.  Well, unless people don't question your biased opinion.

Hi all,

Well since I have dealt with the peanut gallery above I can focus on the actual questions vice nonsensical rants.  I read through the posts last night and decided rather than use a very long post to respond; I will take each theme in turn and respond as there were a few different tangents.

Andraste

More proof you need to re-read my post above.  If you are going to dish it out on here, you better be able to take it as well.  My  :2c: is you are far too thin-skinned to be able to take it, so I'd gear back a bit on the arrogance and "if you don't agree with me you are a *insert label here*.

 

[Jarnhamar]

You know, your posts were informative and balanced on a relatively new and perhaps sensitive subj for people in the CAF.

But, with this post, I am sorry to say but you just lost your credibility.  Military ethos doesn't state that serving mbr's are not allowed to have and express their opinions.  Was the post blunt?  Sure.  Does that make it 'wrong'?  Not by a long shot.

Your response?  Digression to name calling, elementary school playground junk.  And why?  Because someone doesn't agree with YOUR point of view on a subj that you are 101% biased on for personal reasons.  It's horseshit.

Well said, I was going to say the very same thing.

Well, I am assuming this is meant for me. While you are certainly entitled to your opinion (both of you) I guess I am entitled to mine.

You both make a mockery of decent human beings and if you are in the military perhaps you should read the military ethos and take it to heart because you definitely don't belong in the CAF.  Respect to all folks, dignity and whatnot . . . interesting concepts so learn them.  Perhaps some day when you exceed the emotional level of a 5 year old you will be ready for polite company.

Good luck with your sad view on life and if you are in the CAF and should you see me the proper respect paid will be "Ma'am"  [

Regards

Andraste

Lots of people in the CAF will find a man living as a woman weird, who cares. That doesn't mean they won't be professional about it, defending their issues and concerns or supporting their leadership.

 

[armyvern]

Some with no hesitancy to call Andraste out, but nary the others.  Too funny and says a lot because, you know, one can still disagree with someone else and still be RESPECTFUL about it and that was Andraste's point.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Some with no hesitancy to call Andraste out, but nary the others.  Too funny and says a lot.

Examples?