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Transgender in the CF (merged)

Jarnhamar said:
Examples?

One can disagree with someone and still be RESPECTFUL about it.  No one pointed out that bit about leadership and disagreeing respectfully until Andraste made her post (and, that call could have been made before hers). Funny that.
 
ArmyVern said:
One can disagree with someone and still be RESPECTFUL about it. 

Surprised this discussion has lasted 13 pages without a lock,

Dress rules established for transsexuals in military
http://army.ca/forums/threads/97978.50.html
LOCKED after 3 pages.

From: Hey look, another one
http://army.ca/forums/threads/82008.0/nowap.html
"If it wasn't from a MOD locking that dragqueen thread you would still be there fighting for transsexual rights."
LOCKED after 8 pages.

a few questions
https://army.ca/forums/threads/35796.0
"I'm also a pre op mtf transsexual"
LOCKED


 
Eye in the sky,

Sorry I lost credibility in your eyes but you launched as if I just made an off handed comment.  It was in reply to a post directed at me in which I am insulted.  Was I suppose to sit back and take it?  Is there a reason why the individual below can call me delusional and that is okay but when I return and call the person out . . .  all of sudden that get's your goat.

On top of that you get verbally rude in your own post on a subject I am certain you are 110 percent biased against.  So before you cast dispersions . . . try turning that "eye in sky" to all posters.

Technoviking said:
Ok. Enough.
Dude, you are not female in spite of your beliefs and surgery.
You did not gain 5 years life expectancy.
Your DNA did not change.
Your pheremones did not change.
Your risk of prostate cancer didn't go away (unless maybe they removed it, I guess)
Ovarian cancer isn't a risk.
You had surgery and probably hormonal treatment. And yes, if you have sex with men, you are also homosexual.

That you choose to live your life accirding to the social norms associated with women is none of my business. That you call yourself female is delusional and mocks the very nature of human beings everywhere, and suggests that you assert that the differences between men and women is merely superficial.
A woman in the US "identified" as black and was roundly mocked. You and she are equally delusional, but it doesn't prevent either of you from living a life with which you identify.  She can have black friends, use black vernacular,  listen to black music and even watch black movies (whatever any of that stuff really means), and thats ok.
But she's not black.
And you're not a woman.
 
Folks, everyone is entitled to their opinion. That said, posters can still be cognizant that not everyone shares that opinion. Rudeness is ill defined, as is delusional, etc. It is only in the eye of the beholder to judge that, while not imposing their own bias on the situation. Delusional/ rude/ whatever, is again, just the opinion of the person and does not constitute an insult, which in itself, is just an opinion. You're supposed to be adults. Now, move along. The kiddie playground is closed.

---Staff---
 
Andraste

You may have been insulted, and I wouldn't blame you for it a bit, but overlook his tone, and try and refute the assertions.............now most of us would say it in a much nicer way but IMO, he is right.

I think I'm the hottest man who ever lived,................I have never felt 'insulted" by any of the thousands of women who thought otherwise and turned me down flat.
Thinking something does not make it reality.

 
Alcon . . . Ack and got it. 

I apologize if my tone came off as rude and condescending in response to what I saw as a personal insult from another followed by another harshly worded e-mail.  I live this daily . . . insults, attacks (verbal mostly / physical sometimes) so it does get very real for me and sometimes I can get emotionally charged and fail to think before writing. 

Again I apologize for potentially derailing the thread and will now move along.

Regards and best of luck  :)

Andraste
 
No need to move along.........sometimes folks [me included] can write heavy-handed posts, but we pride ourselves on being an intelligent website full of passionate, but proper, interaction and discussion.
 
Andraste said:
Again I apologize for potentially derailing the thread and will now move along.

Andraste, I found your posts interesting and informative. Judging by your Milpoints history, so did others. I counted eleven positive comments, and only one negative.  :)

Should you decide to step away from this thread, I hope you will continue to help others in the administration discussions.  :)
 
mariomike said:
Andraste, I found your posts interesting and informative.

I did too. Transgender issues are something any leader in the CAF may have to deal with and given the state of despair some of the soldiers and officers we`re seeing coming into the CAF we need as many fighters as we can get. 
 
Jarnhamar said:
I did too. Transgender issues are something any leader in the CAF may have to deal with and given the state of despair some of the soldiers and officers we`re seeing coming into the CAF we need as many fighters as we can get.

I guess you never know about some people until put to the test?

"A decorated war hero and avowed heterosexual, he fought in World War II wearing bra and panties under his uniform."
"Wood later claimed that he feared being wounded in battle more than he feared being killed because he wore a bra and panties under his uniform."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/movies/videos/edwoodrhowe_a019bd.htm

:)

But, it was something RadarGrrl said earlier in the thread that got my attention, "Trans people have one of the highest suicide rates in the world."
 
Andraste said:
Eye in the sky,

Sorry I lost credibility in your eyes but you launched as if I just made an off handed comment.  It was in reply to a post directed at me in which I am insulted.  Was I suppose to sit back and take it?  Is there a reason why the individual below can call me delusional and that is okay but when I return and call the person out . . .  all of sudden that get's your goat.

On top of that you get verbally rude in your own post on a subject I am certain you are 110 percent biased against.  So before you cast dispersions . . . try turning that "eye in sky" to all posters.

I read it, thanks.  That post gives someone's opinion on the subj transgender men and if they are actually women. 

- That person didn't refer to your worth as a human being, or if you are suitable for employment on the CAF.  Is there a difference because of that?  To me, yes. 

- I was DIRECT; that is different from being RUDE. 

- You've no idea anything about me at this point, but feel free to go on labelling me as "110% biased" or whatever.  But, let's make it clear, I've not stated an opinion on the thread subj like TV has.  What is it I am 110% biased on? 

- I have no real, defined opinion because there is lots I do not know about the whole subj.  I didn't post a reply to your early words at all, I found them very informative and well written.  It was educational, and those are the types of messages people like me are receptive to (older, more deeply entrenched opinions, etc). 

- I've been called out on here before, in open and via PMs, for saying things others were bothered by.  In 2 days, I could say something that crosses a line and I'll expect to be called on it.

- Let's keep the thread moving on, you've given people the insider perspective on the subj, and I for one will say its the only 'BTDT' perspective I've ever been exposed to on the subj.

:2c:
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Andraste

You may have been insulted, and I wouldn't blame you for it a bit, but overlook his tone, and try and refute the assertions.............

Why would she? If he would have read Andraste's posts he probably would have realized she has already said that her DNA and physiological make-up is male.

Bruce Monkhouse said:
I think I'm the hottest man who ever lived,................I have never felt 'insulted" by any of the thousands of women who thought otherwise and turned me down flat.

Thinking something does not make it reality.

So I just wikipedia's "reality" and here is an interesting blurb....

"Reality is often contrasted with what is imaginary, delusional, (only) in the mind, dreams, what is false, what is fictional, or what is abstract. At the same time, what is abstract plays a role both in everyday life and in academic research. For instance, causality, virtue, life and distributive justice are abstract concepts that can be difficult to define, but they are only rarely equated with pure delusions. Both the existence and reality of abstractions are in dispute: one extreme position regards them as mere words; another position regards them as higher truths than less abstract concepts. This disagreement is the basis of the philosophical problem of universals."

Biology is reality, for sure. Gender is abstract. Here we are, debating about the existence and reality of the abstract.

I would say calling someone delusional for believing in the concept of "gender" is about as fair as calling them delusional for thinking things like virtue and justice exist. Virtue and justice are both also abstract. Their reality can be disputed.

At the end of the day, since this whole dispute is about bathrooms.... I'm happy I can fall back to my trustworthy principle of "if it doesn't harm you or anyone else, it's none of your damn business." If a woman wants to use their penis to pee in a urinal or in a cleaner, better smelling, pink bathroom, I don't care, and what is more concerning to me is why anyone else would.
 
Hi everyone. I'm glad to see this thread is still active. It's taken me a few days of off and on reading to catch up.

Andraste, what kind of administrative/medical process did you go through to get to where you are now? Also, do you have any advice for someone just starting out on this kind of a path?
 
Technoviking said:
Ok. Enough.
Dude, you are not female in spite of your beliefs and surgery.
You did not gain 5 years life expectancy.
Your DNA did not change.
Your pheremones did not change.
Your risk of prostate cancer didn't go away (unless maybe they removed it, I guess)
Ovarian cancer isn't a risk.
You had surgery and probably hormonal treatment. And yes, if you have sex with men, you are also homosexual.

That you choose to live your life accirding to the social norms associated with women is none of my business. That you call yourself female is delusional and mocks the very nature of human beings everywhere, and suggests that you assert that the differences between men and women is merely superficial.
A woman in the US "identified" as black and was roundly mocked. You and she are equally delusional, but it doesn't prevent either of you from living a life with which you identify.  She can have black friends, use black vernacular,  listen to black music and even watch black movies (whatever any of that stuff really means), and thats ok.
But she's not black.
And you're not a woman.

TKV and GAP (sorry I could not link your post for some reason),

Yesterday I responded to your posts in a very callous, immature and unprofessional manner.  In essence I did exactly what I accused you of doing.  I will fall on my sword and personally apologize to both of you and anyone who read my rant and was put off.  I can offer no explanation short of I am human and sometimes as humans we lash out uncontrollably when things get emotionally heated.  I saw your post as a personal attack (not a point of view) and should have just employed shoot, scan and breathe vice full on counter offensive.  It is not much to offer but there it is.  Again my apologies. 

Now I will respond in the calm and logical manner I should have yesterday.

TKV . . . I never contended I was genetically or physiologically female.  Indeed if you do a deep dive on my earlier posts, I make a distinction between physical sex (what you term as the superficial) and gender identity (in essence our beliefs in who we are . . . what makes you, you).  I was born XY (male) and will die XY (male) and no amount of surgical intervention, hormone replacement will ever change that so on that point we agree.  I also stated, I am not seeking gender reassignment surgery or hormone replacement because what is between my legs and other aspects of my male physiology does not define me as a person any more than it defines you.  In addition I feel you may be confusing societal constructs of gender, girls act one way and boys another as a defining characteristic of male/female.  We all know there are plenty Alpha pack women out there and not so Alpha pack males.  Some men cook, sew and are stay at home dads and some women hunt, spit on the ground and swear like a trucker (no offence to truckers  ;)).  My point is that irrespective of their superficial (the physical) or their perceived societal norms, they know in their heart they are a man or a woman.

Grant me some latitude and do the following . . . Define for me what it means to you to be a man.  Now I will tack a caveat on this in that you cannot uses the superficial (male physiology) or gender stereotypes (boys do this and girls do that).  When I say I am a woman I mean I connect with women on an emotional level and relate to women in a way I can never relate to men.  When I am work as a woman or just going about my day . . . I feel complete in a way I never felt as a man.  It has nothing to do with how I look or how I am dressed but everything to do with a sense of self.  Before I transitioned, I was angry, mean spirited to those around me, moody, resentful, hated everything I did not understand (including myself) . . . an all-around d-bag.  Now, not so much. 

Your comparison of the woman who claimed to be of African American decent and transgender folk is way off base IMHO.  The woman in question did this to gain credibility in the eyes of others she worked with as a civil rights lawyer.  It was about personal gain.  As a transgender person, I gain nothing and loose much.  As I said in an earlier post, this is something I would not wish on my worst enemy. 

As far as me being personally delusional . . . umm  . . . sorry to say I am “five by five” according to my last psych work-up in my previous job.  I also don’t agree with your contention that I am personally making a mockery of human life.  Conversely I am celebrating and honoring human life by being the best person I can be and living each day as if it is a gift.  If some don’t agree with how I see myself or who I am, that is their baggage to carry not mine.  However, I won’t go back to being the cynical, mean spirited d-bag I was, hating everyone and everything around me.  That is making a mockery of human life IMO.

Finally . . . dude . . .  I am a woman.  You may not agree and you can argue this point into oblivion but you won’t convince me otherwise any more than I can convince you that you aren’t a man.

Cheers

Andraste
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Andraste

You may have been insulted, and I wouldn't blame you for it a bit, but overlook his tone, and try and refute the assertions.............now most of us would say it in a much nicer way but IMO, he is right.

I think I'm the hottest man who ever lived,................I have never felt 'insulted" by any of the thousands of women who thought otherwise and turned me down flat.
Thinking something does not make it reality.

Bruce,

Unfortunately I have to disagree that thinking doesn't make something a reality.  Others may not see you as a "hottie" but in your mind you still are.  So your reality is not marred by others perception of you.  You are still said "hottest man who ever lived" and that is what defines you regardless of what some women may think.

Like you, my belief/acceptance of myself as a woman is not marred by what others think.  If someone wants to follow me about the mall mocking me or if someone thinks that I am just a dude in a dress, that is their perception and their baggage to carry.  However where we differ is that nobody is going to verbally and/or physically assault you because your said hotness is being called into question.  Nor will you be denied employment, a place to live, loose friends and family, have laws enacted to discriminate against you because you are not hot. 

To clarify, I am not being a wisenheimer, being trans is no easy row to hoe but we do it because to do otherwise can lead to some really nasty self-destructive behavior . . . that is how real it gets (been there done that and got the t-shirt).  So not hacking . . . just pointing out a difference.

Cheers

Andraste
 
Eye,

Sorry, I don't agree with all your points in your reply so let's agree to disagree.  However, I can get behind your below point 110%  :) and I think my posts above will help move it in that direction. One question though . . . BTDT  ???

Cheers

Andraste


Eye In The Sky said:
- Let's keep the thread moving on, you've given people the insider perspective on the subj, and I for one will say its the only 'BTDT' perspective I've ever been exposed to on the subj.

:2c:
 
RogueSig said:
Hi everyone. I'm glad to see this thread is still active. It's taken me a few days of off and on reading to catch up.

Andraste, what kind of administrative/medical process did you go through to get to where you are now? Also, do you have any advice for someone just starting out on this kind of a path?

Hi RogueSig,

WRT advice to anyone starting down this path or if you happen to be a supervisor dealing with a person starting down the path I can provide some insight based on my own personal experience. 

Generally, most people know they are transgender from an early age.  They may not quite comprehend it but they have an inkling.  I knew by about age 5 that I was not quite wired like the other boys but generally I biffed through early life, teens, and young adulthood socializing "boy" doing stereotypically guy things and topped it off by joining the military to press the fact I was uber-male.  Some transgender folk know they are transsexual (i.e., trapped in the wrong body) from the get go and others (like myself) repress, hide and blunder along the Transgender spectrum thinking they are a classic cross dresser but still all guy.  However once we have the "it's more than just the dressing" realization it pops a cap sort to speak and what many in the community term the "pink fog" rolls in.  Specifically, you are driven to dress more, you may do what I referred to as "Ninja Femme Drives" where you dress up and go for covert drives around the neighborhood.  This normally leads to making outings to public venues (malls, restaurants) in an effort to quell the need to be seen as the target gender.  Does this mean the person is transsexual (wants to be the target gender)?  Not always but it is a good indication. 

So my first advice to anyone who thinks or you are dealing with a subordinate/friend/family member who thinks they might be transsexual, is to see a therapist who specializes in gender identity issues.  Now folks this is not to say the person is crazy or delusional but potentially confused about where they fall on the spectrum. They may be transsexual (TS) but then again they may also be a classic cross dresser who has just found a new zeal and is moving forward at breakneck speed and now thinks they are transsexual.  The therapist (in my own case) will bring order to chaos.  The best way I can describe this would be an orchestra warming up.  My mind was like an orchestra but instead of harmony it was a bunch of individual instruments doing their own thing and the sound was chaotic, annoying and deafening.  My therapist was like a conductor in that she brought the instruments into harmony and allowed me to focus for the first time in 50 years on who I was.  It is only then that I realized I was TS and not just a cross dresser and moved forward from there.

So my best advice . . . professional therapy.  Indeed if you come out in the CAF it is a requirement in order to move forward with transition.  Again, I want to clarify, this does not mean the person is crazy or delusional nor is being TG seen as mental disorder (that was removed from the DSM IV many years ago).  They just need assistance to focus and discover where they fall along the path before making a life altering decision.  If you are cross dresser, then go forth and enjoy . . . no need to tell work or come out to the world (unless you want to) but if you are Transsexual then this is the first step to transition within the CAF.

So the process:

1. Make an appointment with your medical folks.  My advice unless you know for certain you are transsexual, merely tell your doctor you are having some gender identity issues and would like to talk to someone about them. Your doctor should at that point refer you to mental health services who will do a work-up and referral to a gender identity therapist.  This will normally last about 10 visits while the therapist helps the person to understand and move forward.

2. If the person decides they are transsexual then the medical folks will put them on a TCat for six months (could be more) while you explore medical options which could be hormone replacement therapy (HRT) all  the way to gender reassignment surgery.  Depending on your route the TCat could be longer.  Mine was quick because I have sought no medical intervention.

3. Administratively you will need to legally change your name to the target gender name and make changes to other documentation.  You can have your sex designation changed on your birth certificate in most Provinces without going through GRS so that is a step you will need to take if you want the target gender on your documentation.

4. Once you have your documentation changed, you need to have your military documentation (MPRR, ID and whatnot) to reflect your new gender and name.  Bear in mind this only moving forward and there will be no change to your name on any decorations or awards you received prior to transition.  This step is normally done in sync with the document changes above.

5. You will need your chain of command to send a letter to Logisicks to change your gender marker so you can order from the target gender catalogue and get the appropriate dress uniforms. 

The above are all administrative.  The other advice before you go weapons hot with a transition is education to your work place.  I transitioned in place which meant I was presenting as a man at work one day then a woman the next week.  Prior to that my chain of command held an information session (with my input) to discuss the transition and any accommodations made.  This provided people with a heads up and allowed them to filter questions to me should they have any.  This helped pave the way for my first day at work . . . and believe me walking into that building in a CAF skirt vice pants was the hardest thing I ever had to do . . . but it felt right.  Yes, some people were put off, others were curious and I just continued with personal interaction, responded to questions until eventually it became a non-issue.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Andraste     
 
Pusser said:
However, will they be?  Is there a "transgender" box on the form to tick?  If a transgender person identifies themselves on the form as female (which the system says they should) and their pers file says they're female (which it legally does), how then can their results be recorded as anything, but those of a woman, notwithstanding that they used a male body to achieve them?  In other words, I don't think our fitness evaluation system has evolved to the point of being able to score transgender personnel according to their physiology, when most other personnel records say something different.

I don't think it's a huge problem.  I don't think that having the very few number of transgender personnel in the CF possibly getting a slightly higher or lower PER score based on their FORCE results is of great concern.  Will FORCE results really differentiate between who gets promoted and who doesn't in the greater scheme of things?

Having said all of this, I am actually fundamentally opposed to higher PER points for the FORCE test, but that's a subject for another discussion.

Hi Pusser,

You make a valid point and I can only hope that should a trans person be post HRT (MtF) that they identify this to the PSP staff when they conduct their FORCE.  This is what I did and while my gender reflects "F", the results were put against a male of my age.  It was a bit of an administrative hoop but it was done.

However, after reading your post I talked to my counterpart at DFit and indicated that this is something that should be looked into with the FORCE policy.  There are (as in my case)  MtF Transsexuals who do not undergo HRT and as such their strength is aligned male.  Likewise there are FtM transsexuals who start HRT before transitioning (i.e., still are legally female) whose body strength would be more aligned male.  They are going to look at make a few adaptations to the policy.  In addition, I am helping with a rewrite of the CAF Transgender policy and will bring this point to the working group.

Bear in mind though, once the member begins HRT for a MtF, her strength and muscle mass will decrease and become more aligned with that of a woman's at her age and such she should be assessed int that regard for any extra points. 

Cheers

Andraste 
 
Andraste said:
Eye,

Sorry, I don't agree with all your points in your reply so let's agree to disagree.  However, I can get behind your below point 110%  :) and I think my posts above will help move it in that direction. One question though . . . BTDT  ???

Cheers

Andraste

Nothing at all wrong with not being able to agree. 

BTDT = been there done that. 

You have experience that is very valuable, from having lived this, and more importantly you're willing to share it. 
 
Andraste said:
...

Grant me some latitude and do the following . . . Define for me what it means to you to be a man.  Now I will tack a caveat on this in that you cannot uses the superficial (male physiology) or gender stereotypes (boys do this and girls do that).  When I say I am a woman I mean I connect with women on an emotional level and relate to women in a way I can never relate to men. 
...

I think it's your caveat that many people may have an issue with.  The physiological traits of male/female are the only clearly defined characteristics of male and female (fully understanding that there are certain genetic and medical conditions that make clearly defining male and female much less clear).  Sexual preference, sense of personal identity, personal and group connections on an emotional level however are subjective. 

Part of the problem I think is also the terminology.  For puritanical reasons it seems we have shifted away from talking about someone's "Sex" and now typically talk about their "Gender".  Technically they are not the same thing.  By dictionary definition "Sex" is defined by your physiology while "Gender" refers to more behavioural and cultural aspects.  What used to be called "Sex Change" operations are more commonly called "Gender Reassignment" now.  A person's Sex may not match their Gender. 

Things like washrooms, physical standards, etc. were originally designed to be SEX specific. They more or less tend to still work when at variance with an individual's GENDER when that gender is not exhibited by visible variances with societal gender norms.  Nobody questions a homosexual male using a men's bathroom because you can't visibly differentiate between a gay and straight male just by looking at them.

We have much more difficulty however dealing with gender variations that are further from the societal norms.  We're too uptight to be completely blind to differences in sex and gender and there are some circumstances where differentiation is still required due to negative aspects of human behaviour.  So when do we differentiate people by their SEX and when do it by their GENDER? 

While I agree that our culture and society still hold a very narrow view of what is "normal" male and female behaviour, does that mean that someone
 
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