Transition to Municipal Police Force

[Halifax Tar]

Yeah and also- we re done with regimental identities too. That’s nonsense- one army. Simpler and shouldn’t causes any issues. The reserves and various units will understand the benefits and cooperate.

I like you lol

 

[QV]

Yeah and also- we re done with regimental identities too. That’s nonsense- one army. Simpler and shouldn’t causes any issues. The reserves and various units will understand the benefits and cooperate.

Said like this is all my idea.

 

[brihard]

Let's just call the funding "equalization" and do it.

Provincial forces in every province doing all manner of policing except federal mandates which is strictly the RCMP. All provinces share in the expense of policing the territories and provide a rotation of officers (like the RCMP does now) to police those areas, managed by a federal office probably the RCMP.

Why would any province take on responsibility for policing the territories? It’s not their problem, and no police service can get all the quality applicants they want. Why dilute their numbers even further to take on territory that is, objectively, a significant hassle to police? Different police services use different records management systems, have different radios and radio codes, different procedures for handling evidence, different disclosure processes…

Administration of Justice in the territories is a federal responsibility, hence why the Mounties police up there. There’s zero reason for any province to take that on. I don’t know how that works for the RCMP if, over time, they shift to federal and protective policing and get out of contract policing, but they’ll have to figure that out.

 

[QV]

I'm just offering options to the discussion. But you're right, why would any province want to pay for something in some other province or territory? On that thought, we should just shit can equalization altogether also.

 

[mariomike]

Let's just call the funding "equalization" and do it.

What is the municipal police funding formula in Ontario? ( Not you specifically, QV. )

The municipal dept. I worked for received 50% from Ontario, and 50% from city taxpayers.

As far as "equalization" went, our 10% of the staff in the province handled 20% of the provincial call volume.

Urban vs Rural 9-1-1 response times in Ontario have always been compared.

Municipalities and Regions get the response times their local taxpayers are willing to pay for.

Yeah and also- we re done with regimental identities too. That’s nonsense- one army. Simpler and shouldn’t causes any issues. The reserves and various units will understand the benefits and cooperate.

Pretty easy in a PRes Service Battalion.

RCASC > Logistics.

134 Company > Transportation Company.

Job didn't change.

 

[brihard]

I'm just offering options to the discussion. But you're right, why would any province want to pay for something in some other province or territory? On that thought, we should just shit can equalization altogether also.

I’m not talking about money; for the territories that would clearly be federal. I’m talking about bodies. Say Alberta’s taking over policing of the NWT- where do they get the 150, 200 physical cops to replace the Mounties? Which of their own communities run short to staff a territory?

 

[QV]

I’m not talking about money; for the territories that would clearly be federal. I’m talking about bodies. Say Alberta’s taking over policing of the NWT- where do they get the 150, 200 physical cops to replace the Mounties? Which of their own communities run short to staff a territory?

I said all the provinces contribute, not just one.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I hate to say this, but I think Quebec has the right idea with how they have their police set up.

Municipal forces makes a lot of sense for many things, one of the nicest being officers stay in one location their career instead of being moved around the country (a complaint the CAF should understand all too well). However one of the biggest weaknesses with it is the fact many smaller cities struggle with more serious crimes such as murder. Leaving crimes like that to a provincial force which can have the expertise needed is logical.

Even a provincial police force can struggle with posting people all over the province. Unifying all police into one would likely result in serious attrition.

 

[QV]

I hate to say this, but I think Quebec has the right idea with how they have their police set up.

Municipal forces makes a lot of sense for many things, one of the nicest being officers stay in one location their career instead of being moved around the country (a complaint the CAF should understand all too well). However one of the biggest weaknesses with it is the fact many smaller cities struggle with more serious crimes such as murder. Leaving crimes like that to a provincial force which can have the expertise needed is logical.

Even a provincial police force can struggle with posting people all over the province. Unifying all police into one would likely result in serious attrition.

Just because you have a provincial force doesn't mean you need to move people around every few years... that would be silly. People could and should stay in the same community for as long as they want, or apply out if looking for opportunity elsewhere.

 

[mariomike]

Municipal forces makes a lot of sense for many things, one of the nicest being officers stay in one location their career instead of being moved around the country (a complaint the CAF should understand all too well).

I have no scientific basis for this opinion, but perhaps, over the years, a stronger sense of brotherhood / sisterhood / bonding develops in city departments?

Perhaps, even a deeper sense of loyalty to their community.
For better or worse, nobody is going anywhere. Might as well get used to it.
Worst they could do was send you to Scarborough. < I kid .

 

[brihard]

I said all the provinces contribute, not just one.

I was picking an example, but short of a constitutional amendment, the feds could not impose this on the provinces, and there’s really no motivation for the provinces to take it up voluntarily. And, as I said, if it’s shared between various services, the admin, IT, communications, and logistical challenges become ridiculous. For constitutional, political, logistical and other practical reasons, I believe the solution for policing the territories will remain either the RCMP, or a single organization spun off therefrom.

 

[Booter]

this thread is hilarious. You guys are half way to inventing the RCMP keep going!

We need the opp to suggest that a hub system will solve the issues- because it works in Ontario.

Then someone to say that you need to incentivize serving in small
Places no one wants to live.

Then someone needs to solve that by saying that the provincial agencies need to have some sort of connection where you can apply to go back to another province once you’re done your time in a less desirable place…

 

[QV]

No, I believe the suggestion was that policing could (should) be a provincial mandate (and not done by the RCMP). Federal matters of investigation would remain with the RCMP. The RCMP could recruit exclusively from provincial police constables. More of a tiered approach instead of everyone in all the business.

So it's more like inventing the FBI

 

[dapaterson]

I think we all know in our heart of hearts that the only thing the RCMP needs to do is to abandon all internal combustion engines and return to their roots of being mounted.

Think of the new jobs for farriers and veterinarians!

 

[RedFive]

The drama rolls on, with this particular gem of a leak from a unit that has integrated SPS members...

Questions about Surrey RCMP Unit's tactics prompt internal review

 

[Booter]

The drama rolls on, with this particular gem of a leak from a unit that has integrated SPS members...

Questions about Surrey RCMP Unit's tactics prompt internal review

Is this anything to do with the massive backlog of surveillance and wheel courses? It sounds like it does.

 

[brihard]

No, I believe the suggestion was that policing could (should) be a provincial mandate (and not done by the RCMP). Federal matters of investigation would remain with the RCMP. The RCMP could recruit exclusively from provincial police constables. More of a tiered approach instead of everyone in all the business.

So it's more like inventing the FBI

Policing is a provincial mandate, even where provinces have chosen to contract the RCMP to be their provincial police.

But the Territories aren’t provinces, and yet you propose to shift a federal burden (policing the territories) onto the provinces. To be blunt, that’s really weird coming from you. You still have offered nothing to suggest why the provinces would choose to eat this. Why wouldn’t a federal problem remain a federal problem?

BC, or AB, or NB etc shifting to their own provincial services would make sense if that’s what those jurisdictions choose. ON and QC have proven it, and QC in particular has a strongly defined policing services model under provincial law that could be a model to others.

 

[QV]

Policing is a provincial mandate, even where provinces have chosen to contract the RCMP to be their provincial police.

But the Territories aren’t provinces, and yet you propose to shift a federal burden (policing the territories) onto the provinces. To be blunt, that’s really weird coming from you. You still have offered nothing to suggest why the provinces would choose to eat this. Why wouldn’t a federal problem remain a federal problem?

BC, or AB, or NB etc shifting to their own provincial services would make sense if that’s what those jurisdictions choose. ON and QC have proven it, and QC in particular has a strongly defined policing services model under provincial law that could be a model to others.

For the territories I suggest the feds fund it but the personnel come from all the provincial services. It remains a federal problem financially. The feds have access to a large pool of provincial constables that rotate in similar to what the RCMP already does now. Any provincial constable could apply for a short duration isolated post under the federally funded (and well compensated) northern policing program. I’m just spit balling here BH.

 

[lenaitch]

Just because you have a provincial force doesn't mean you need to move people around every few years... that would be silly. People could and should stay in the same community for as long as they want, or apply out if looking for opportunity elsewhere.

You still need provision for those places where the "as long as they want" is zero.

Actually, in the OPP, paid transfers are nowhere near what they used to be; it's simply too expensive. Movement of recruits, completion of fixed duration postings, promotions and advertised vacancies are pretty much it. All other 'voluntary' transfers are at the members' expense.

What is the municipal police funding formula in Ontario?

That's an easy one - what council approves from the municipal property tax base. Each municipality has a responsibility to provide "adequate and effective police services in accordance with its needs". The Police Services Act outlines a number of 'adequacy standards' which define the provision of those services.. They can do that through their own police service or by contracting another, including the OPP. If Toronto PS wanted to cut their staffing, so long as they met adequacy standards, only their citizenry is stopping them (actually, even if they didn't meet standards, I'm not sure what the province could do about it).

All municipal police services receive provincial grants and transfers towards specific programs and initiatives. Strangely, the OPP does not, although they may get direct funding allocations for similar things. The feds will sometimes provide law enforcement and public safety funding to the provinces.


*****
I've always been a little curious about the RCMP's 'federal policing role'. While there are clear responsibilities regarding such things as national security, there are very few statutes that specifically empower the RCMP. Areas such as financial crime and narcotics all or mostly involve the Criminal Code or other federal statutes that empower all police officers. We do not have the state-federal division like the US. It seems like at least some of the mandate revolves around inter-provincial/international expertise, cooperation and coordination rather than a legislative one.

If what is suggested in the last number of posts were to come to pass, the RCMP would have a small federal division of plains clothes and uniformed members (embassies, etc.) and a small uniformed division in the north. No province would be willing to either fund or staff on a continual rotating basis to police another jurisdiction.

 

[brihard]

For the territories I suggest the feds fund it but the personnel come from all the provincial services. It remains a federal problem financially. The feds have access to a large pool of provincial constables that rotate in similar to what the RCMP already does now. Any provincial constable could apply for a short duration isolated post under the federally funded (and well compensated) northern policing program. I’m just spit balling here BH.

Yup, I get it.

Short rotations are fine as a relief for long term members who need leave, but communities deserve policing primarily provided by people who will work in the community for a few years. My understanding is Mounties rotate in for two or three years in a given community up north, and get backfilled by relief team members when it comes time to fly south and burn a month’s leave.

The fundamental question I asked still wasn’t answered though- why would Alberta Provincial Police, or Edmonton Police, or Calgary, or OPP, or Halifax or what have you send several members at a time to go work in a territory that’s 100% not their problem? Even if the salary is paid back by the feds, how does the premier of Alberta or mayor of Calgary justify ten or twenty officers at a time, indefinitely, being sent away to police somewhere that’s not their home province/community? And all the aforementioned logistical issues.

I've always been a little curious about the RCMP's 'federal policing role'. While there are clear responsibilities regarding such things as national security, there are very few statutes that specifically empower the RCMP. Areas such as financial crime and narcotics all or mostly involve the Criminal Code or other federal statutes that empower all police officers. We do not have the state-federal division like the US. It seems like at least some of the mandate revolves around inter-provincial/international expertise, cooperation and coordination rather than a legislative one.

If what is suggested in the last number of posts were to come to pass, the RCMP would have a small federal division of plains clothes and uniformed members (embassies, etc.) and a small uniformed division in the north. No province would be willing to either fund or staff on a continual rotating basis to police another jurisdiction.

As best as I understand, it has to do with scale or scope. Outlaw bikers moving stuff in Ontario? Probably the problem of OPP and whatever municipal force(s) may have skin in the game. Dope moving from Montreal to Ottawa? Maybe joint between OPP/SQ/SPVM/OPS. Stuff that crosses borders or has a major national component beyond what can reasonably be done jointly between two provincial jurisdictions? Probably the Mounties, maybe involving their provincial counterparts. Stuff coming in bulk from overseas? Probably Mounties, CBSA, and maybe foreign agencies. And then they have lots of little oddball stuff - national interest/infrastructure level cybercrime, major frauds against federal government, immigration stuff with a major criminal element, war crimes, sanctions violations, stuff like that.

Apparently the federal side of the RCMP isn’t small. With my powers of Google-Fu I found one of their recent annual reports; 3500 cops, 1500 civilians. Not sure what their total numbers are for embassies, guarding the PM and GG, air marshals, and other stuff within what they refer to as ‘protective’, but apparently it’s 550 spots for close protection teams across the country, and they’re running at three quarters of what they need… https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rc...tage-cabinet-prime-minister-threats-1.6629092

So, RCMP federal and protective would both be significant sized organizations in their own right. And any role spun off from RCMP would still be in competition for the same bodies. Mounties I’ve known have been basically all over the place, and the RCMP might have the advantage of being able to send people to Pond Inlet for two years because then that member can compete for a transfer to a unit or detachment in or near a major city. Some really like the chance to bounce around career wise and try different things in different places with one employer too.