Transport Canada certification of Naval skills

[NavyShooter]

Pusser,

You sound like you might have some insight....how's the sea day counting going???

Mildly curious...

NS

 

[Stoker]

I've never served on a navy ship, but based on my experience on civillian ships, I'm guessing any training the navy provides is leaps and bounds ahead of civillian training... both in initial training and ongoing skills maintenance... the fact that transport canada doesn't recognize quals is an insult... even basic things, like an MED...

Actually you can get some of the MED wrote off with your navy training.

 

[FDO]

When I was working at Sea Div in Halifax it did come down that the Sea Div Commander could sign a waiver stating that you were up to date on all your Emergency at sea drills. This was accepted by TC. Mind you that was about 6 years ago.

 

[Pusser]

Pusser,

You sound like you might have some insight....how's the sea day counting going???

Mildly curious...

NS

The last I heard, it was not going well.  I gather a team is being formed to search ships' logs held in the National Archives.  However, this will only reveal when ships were at sea.  Ships' logs don't record who was onboard at the time.  Thus, anyone posted to a ship at that time could receive credit for sea days they didn't actually do.  Even worse, people who were on board, but for a variety of administrative reasons (and there are several) aren't able to prove it will lose out.  How is this better than using SDA records, which are much more readily available and accurate?

 

[knuckle dragger]

From the UCTE web site 27 Feb 12

“What are they thinking?” said President Collins.  “In no way is a Naval Officer Certificate equivalent to the Transport Canada Watchkeeping Mate certificate.  SAR Coordinators are put through a series of rigorous testing that demonstrates an ability that is unparalleled.  Naval Officer Certification is an inappropriate equivalent.  It’s like saying just because I go kayaking, I’m a qualified mariner.”
http://www.ucte.com/index.php?q=en/node/1178

I know unions are trying to keep jobs and will say anything they feel they have to.  I'm fine with that.  I just want my pusser kayak.

 

[Strike]

Their comparison chart isn't even accurate.  It's taking the info off the CF recruiting web site as opposed to the more complex actual qualification requirements that the RCN actually institutes, including medicals and minimum qualifications in order to finally be considered a qualified watch officer.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The chart they make is as biased as one of ours would be if we compared, on one hand, every P.O. check and specific class taught to a MARS officer before his BWK board to the general Internet description of Coast Guard Fleet Officer training found on the Coast Guard College web site . An example of descriptions found there:

"Becoming a Fleet Officer requires diligence, intellectual effort, and commitment. The Officer Training Program prepares Officers in both Marine Engineering and Navigation. The 45-month training period involves comprehensive in-class theory, the use of modern marine simulators and practical experience during sea training."

Truth be told, there're differences in the training and coursing. We obviously don't need too much in terms of cargo handling courses - Merchant Seaman (which is what Cost Guard officers are) do. Their stability coursing is of a higher caliber - because it is related to cargo work, where we have engineers onboard to do ours. Etc. On our side, we get more in damage control, communications and high speed high precision navigation, joint and coordinated operations, etc.

What is most disconcerting, however, is that the Coast Guard union seems to think that  all this merchant mariner's training somehow prepares their officers to work in a land based HQ known as Co-ordination Centre. In these centres, it is the co-ordinated use of multiple air and sea assets through communications and the implementation of pre-existing plans, together with all attached considerations, that matter: When they first get there, Coast Guard officers have never done this nor have they ever studied it, where their RCAF and RCN counterparts have received years of training in this.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

A accurate statement by Oldboats. A lot of running a merchant ship deals with cargo, because at the end of the day the ship is purely a device to move cargo to from point A to point B. We were fighting a fire on a fishboat, we were starting to attack it with foam, when the Captain asked us to stop, he said just hold the fire to the forward end of the vessel while we pump the herring roe out. In this case the cargo was worth more than the boat.
Modern Ports can load and unload vessels so quickly that they can break the ships back if the officer responsible is not on top of the ballest plan.

 

[Snakedoc]

I was looking into information on getting a Pleasure Craft Operator Card (PCOC) and became curious about any types of equivalancies offered by TC for DND/RCN quals.  I found out that there are DND equivalencies for the PCOC and I don't think I need to take the exam or hold the PCOC as a MARS officer with a BWK.  I have friends who've taken the PCOC exam and they say it's fairly easy but I just figured if it's not required, might as well save the money.

I found this thread during my search and figured this would be the right place to add the information for anyone interested (though this is only for pleasure craft).  Also, Mods, any chance parts the OP's post can be edited to better reflect this site?  More information available at the link below and here's a list of DND certs that don't require you to carry a PCOC:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/debs-obs-courses-pcoc-list-marine-safety-certif-1323.htm

Department of National Defence Certificates Considered Equivalent

Upper Deck Watchkeeping
Destroyer Navigating Officer
Surface Ship Command
Patrol Vessel Command
Bridge Watchkeeping
Deep Draught Officer or Fleet Navigating Officer
Minor War vessel or Surface Ship Command (after 1997)

From the FAQ section:

"Any person who holds a certificate or equivalency on the List of Certificates of Competency, Training Certificates and other Equivalencies is competent to operate a pleasure craft under the Competency of Pleasure Craft Regulations. A person holding such a certificate or equivalency simply needs to carry their certificate or equivalency (or a copy of it) on board their pleasure craft, accompanied by a proof of identification.

Transport Canada is currently working on a process whereby a person holding certificates or equivalencies from that list can obtain a PCOC from Transport Canada.

Once the new card system is in place, a person will have the option to continue to carry a copy of their certificate on board or obtain a PCOC from one of the Marine Safety Transport Canada Centers."

 

[Snakedoc]

I have to say that it is surprising that there isn't anything on the list for a RHIB Coxn qual or anything like that though.  The current DND quals listed are clearly going to consist of people who are, if anything, over-qualified rather than 'equivalent' to a PCOC haha.  I would hope a person who's had surface command can operate a pleasure craft!

 

[quadrapiper]

I have to say that it is surprising that there isn't anything on the list for a RHIB Coxn qual or anything like that though.

Or the various iterations of Tender Charge.

 

[Good2Golf]

Well, when one puts aside the OP's derogatory insults of TC personnel in the first post, is the issue that there are not a set of TC marine exams that can be written by appropriately qualified personnel that can be written to secure the qualification?

It seems that expecting blanket equivalencies without validation of qualifications or at least understanding, is perhaps not realistic.

On the aviation side of things, while providing a copy of my logbook sufficed to confirm prerequisite flight hours, I still had to write a number of TC qualifying exams as would any other applicant, civilian or military.  End result, $75 later and a CPL-H with type ratings for all the aircraft I had flown as PIC in the legislated preceding 12 months.  TC even supplied preparatory guides for the qualifying exams that allowed me and my friends to prepare quite reasonably for the test.

Is the issue that RCN pers do not qualify to write qualifying/licensing exams based on their mariner experience?


Regards
G2G

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The advice I received about my ticket was to carry a copy of such and copy of the webpage pointing to the validity of such. Keep in mind the police officer examining your documents has had very little training in enforcing the law and may not be aware of such exemptions.

The Office of Boating Safety is being gutted yet again and will focus on regulatory stuff and very little public education. Expect a lot of unsure answers to your questions for a bit.

 

[Greymatters]

Just jumping in to point out that there are a lot of trade qualifications out in the CF that are not recognized as equivalent to civilian trades, not just Naval trades; some are not recognized for valid reasons, some for insignificant reasons, but either way you have to adapt to the system, not expect them to adapt to you.

 

[Kirkhill]

Finding a way to get from USS to USNS or the types of sailors needed for Asterix, Ocean Trader and the UK's Prevail ships.

WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump signed an executive order Monday easing the process for veterans to transition into the Merchant Marine.

The order will clear the way for the Merchant Marine to waive licensing fees for sea-service veterans and count their military training toward its credentialing system, said Peter Navarro, a White House trade policy adviser.

Trump’s administration is positing the action as part of a broader effort to transition veterans into civilian jobs. It’s also a method to boost the number of highly-qualified mariners in the Merchant Marine, which has faced a shortage in recent years, Navarro said.

“I think the whole point here is to leverage their experience that they gain and education they gain in the military to move directly into the Merchant Marine and do it in a way where the fees and costs are minimized,” Navarro said Monday during a briefing with reporters.

https://www.stripes.com/trump-executive-order-eases-veteran-transition-into-merchant-marine-1.571328

Thoughts on a Canadian equivalent?  My understanding is that RCN quals aren't recognized by civilian boards.

 

[mariomike]

Thoughts on a Canadian equivalent?  My understanding is that RCN quals aren't recognized by civilian boards.

See also,

Transport Canada wont recognize any Naval training to get a civilian BWK ticket 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/97148.25
2 pages.

 

[chrisf]

If I've learned one thing from of dealing with Transport Canada...

Its that they almost never have any idea what they're doing.

If you don't like the answer you get, don't get frustrated and give up, come back another day and talk to someone else, or call another office and ask the same question.

Answers provided may seem completely random, keep asking until you get the one you want.

Transport Canada will absolutely recognize some naval training and sea time.

 

[mariomike]

I have marine experience with the Navy/DND and would like to work on Canadian vessels, what do I need to do?


Answer:
To transfer your qualifications from Canadian Navy to work on Canadian Vessels, please refer to the following sections of Transport Canada publication listed below;

The Examination and Certification of Seafarers (TP 2293)

Please note - Section 2.5- Assessment process and section 2.8- Engineering Certificates with special reference to paragraph 3 which relates to service in Canadian Armed Forces Table VI- refers to types of Certificates and credits for candidates from Canadian Armed Forces.

Please contact or visit any one of the TCMS office near you, and present yourself with all your documentation, for assessment of your qualifications and your eligibility for Direct examinations.

Once your case is cleared for a Direct Examination, we will issue you with a letter specifying at which level you are accepted, courses to complete and examinations to pass.
On successful completion of training courses and examinations, an equivalent Canadian Certificate of Competency (CoC) is issued. This Certificate is a pre-requisite for working on any type of Canadian ships, and as explained above, pre-requisites for getting the certificate are the successful completion of above courses and the passing of examinations mentioned in Table III of Chapter 2, TP 2293 .
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/mpsp-training-examination-certification-faq-1052.htm#qt6

Edit to remove dead link.

 

[blacktriangle]

Its that they almost never have any idea what they're doing.

If you don't like the answer you get, don't get frustrated and give up, come back another day and talk to someone else, or call another office and ask the same question.

Answers provided may seem completely random, keep asking until you get the one you want.

Transport Canada will absolutely recognize some naval training and sea time.

TC must be staffed by a combination of former VAC employees and retired RMS clerks.

 

[chrisf]

TC must be staffed by a combination of former VAC employees and retired RMS clerks.

TC is what happen when you expect people to have industry experience, but only pay 1/2 to 1/3 of what industry does.

You get want you pay for.