Troops carrying pistols outside the gate

[Big Red]

I wouldn't run anything but ball in a BHP.  I had several stoppages using hollowpoints especially ones with a wide blunt nose.

Legally I believe CF soldiers can only carry ball ammo.  I carry Speer Gold Dot in my mags.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Thanks for that 

 

[KevinB]

9mm Ball for conventional troops

JHP or GreenShield Frangible for others...

Mind you legally the conventional guys could use the GreenShield -- it is a poor terminal performer - a bit better than ball - it is a ceramic/powdered metal (leadfree) round nose round (60gr?)  -- It feeds in Sig's and Glocks - not sure about the BHP's

 

[zipperhead_cop]

So nobody uses the Ranger SXT rounds?  That is the standard for LEO's these days around these parts (used to be called Black Talons until they got all PC)  In a .40 cal they are 180 grain.  Supposed to have pretty good stopping power.

 

[KevinB]

I'm not sure what the current annual Federal buy for JHP 9mm ammo is.
I have had Remington Golden Saber, Winchester Ranger SXT, Federal BPLE you name it.

If a round satifies the criteria for performance - they go with the best value.


Do to Hague Convention restraints on ammunition - conventional forces are forbiden from using JHP or other open tipped or soft lead tipped ammuntion.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Due to Hague Convention restraints on ammunition - conventional forces are forbiden from using JHP or other open tipped or soft lead tipped ammuntion.

That I did not know.  Thanks for another quality brain nugget. 

 

[Kilroy]

Had an instance in Afghanistan that makes me firmly beleive that carrying a pistol outside the wire is a must! I was right-seater in an HLVW w/flatbed. Our load had shifted, and we where told by the vehicle following us, that we would not make it outside the city. WELL... 10:00 o'clock at night, JUST as the stores are closing, here I am running around the flatbed adjusting straps while my driver was ontop. Due to the circumstances, carrying my rifle with me would of been impractible, so it was left in the cab. I heard a comotion behind me, and a local was walking toward me. I turned around, pulled the pistol, pointed it at his head, and was about to pull the trigger, when a soldier form the vehicle infront of me, and one from behind, both with C7's Came toward him and told him to back the hell up. I figured 60 rounds of automatic fire, versus 12 rounds of 9mm in the hands of a nervous soldier was a better idea. I slowly backed away and let the boys handle it. Luckily it turned out the guy just wanted to walk on the road, and didn't understand why we took offence to it. I was literally a half second away from shooting this guy!!! I quickly got back to securing the load, and we got out of there as quickly as possible. Think it took a day and a half to get a normal heartbeat back!!! I had visions of this guy going kaboom!!

For this reason, I firmly beleive that the addition of a pistol is vital to those outside the wire.

 

[Canadian Sig]

We were told the other day that it is the opinion of "someone" in Ottawa that there are too many pistols in theater and they are going to be restricted to Sgt and above only. While i'm sure that rule will be gotten around by some (it wont apply to myself for example) it does make me wonder why someone would think more firepower and options is a bad thing.

 

[KevinB]

We were told the other day that it is the opinion of "someone" in Ottawa that there are too many pistols in theater and they are going to be restricted to Sgt and above only. While i'm sure that rule will be gotten around by some (it wont apply to myself for example) it does make me wonder why someone would think more firepower and options is a bad thing.

Fricken retarded - another Dinosaur who thinks the pistol is an ornament not a combat tool (transition is the #1 IA).  This guy probably likes the TacVest too...

 

[George Wallace]

We were told the other day that it is the opinion of "someone" in Ottawa

Now see what you have done?  First off, you were told, not ordered.  Second, it is someone's "opinion".  Right now you are working on the "Rumour Net".  As for numpty's opinion; see response above by Infidel-6.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Caught an episode of "Truth, Duty, Valour" last night on the TV. The episode dealt with the next contingent of RCR that will be deploying to Afghanistan this August and showed the urban combat training . Not once did they show anybody using a pistol while searching the buildings, just carbines and in one case a shotgun. I'm sure there
would be situations where having a pistol would be more advantageous than using a rifle (e.g. engineer preparing demolitions, climbing through windows, searching confined spaces, etc).

As an aside, I found the training and equipment depicted used very interesting, especially when I compared to the urban warfare training I had been taught back in the late '70s. Love the look of those sci-fi helmets they used when training with the paint ball guns!

 

[George Wallace]

Now this brings to mind the "Tunnel Rats" in the Vietnam War.  These guys actually went into the Viet Cong tunnel systems to clear them.  In those tight quarters, there was no room for bringing in a rifle or carbine.  Pistols and grenades were thier tools.  So, it is foolish in this day of age to take no precautions for the unexpected.  Just because you saw "Truth, Duty, Valour" last night on TV doesn't mean that it portrayed an accurate image of what goes on outside of the wire.  You can just as easily state that last night you stayed at a Holiday INN.

 

[KevinB]

I dont think the CF has sim kits for the BHP's which may explain the lack of pistol in that circumstance

They have them for the Sig's but most units dont get them...

 

[Blakey]

There are plenty of pistols to go around, at least in "Gunny Hwy's" platoon  (so we've been told  :-\), although I'd like to see a 226 or a .45 S&W instead of the BHP.

As for the rest of the wagon train, I have no idea so, I won't comment.

 

[Canadian Sig]

Now see what you have done?   First off, you were told, not ordered.  Second, it is someone's "opinion".  Right now you are working on the "Rumour Net". 

The "someone" has two crossed sword and a leaf on his chest.

It's more than rumor. If your a MCpl or below in our unit and go into QM to sign for a pistol for roto you will be told it's now policy that pistols are issued to Sgts and above only.

As for whether I was ordered I guess if someone with more than two bones and a leaf tells me then it's an order...so I have been ordered.

I agree with Kev by the way.

 

[George Wallace]

I agree with Kev by the way.

So do I.

The only stipulation that I can agree with, would be that the person, no matter the rank, must be 'qualified' and 'skilled' enough on the weapon to have it issued.  That negates that "person of rank's opinion" as many in the category that he has 'stated' are not qualified, nor skilled, on the BHP.   Thus this policy is a farce, and ill-conceived.


Wouldn't this in effect take pistols away from the majority of MP pers in Theatre?  ;D

 

[PhilB]

The problem is the allocation of pistols. When I was there there were a lot of pistols floating around but every "office worker" and officer had one, regardless of their job. I think a pistol going to a guy outside the wire that might use it is much more important than to a clerk that can just as easily carry their rifle to their office and leave it in a rifle rack. Like Kevin said, the pistol, or dinner pistol as we were calling it, is a status symbol and are being issued more for peoples convenience than for any tactical consideration.

 

[George Wallace]

PhilB

The pistol is a status symbol in Afghan culture.  Usually it is a sign of leadership.  It may be a case that someone thinks only the CO and OC and their senior people should have pistols outside the wire as an "identifier".  There are serious problems with that philosophy.  That now makes it easier for snipers to identify 'leaders'. 

I don't agree with your comments on people anywhere placing their wpns in wpns racks, no matter where they may be working.  I do think that the job a person does should have some relevance as to what wpn they are issued, as per my previous stipulations regarding their proficiency in the use of that wpn.

 

[Haggis]

The pistol is a status symbol in Afghan culture.  Usually it is a sign of leadership.

Not only Afghan culture.  Many cultures that have been exposed to the former Warsaw Pact, have a similar belief about the status of a person who carried a pistol.  In one case, the local politicians and police refused to deal with my Coy 2IC because, as an old school CFR'd RSM, he carried a rifle.  I, on the other hand, carried a pistol and generally left my rifle in the vehicle (with my driver).

It may be a case that someone thinks only the CO and OC and their senior people should have pistols outside the wire as an "identifier".  There are serious problems with that philosophy.  That now makes it easier for snipers to identify 'leaders'. 

  Throw some soft hatted Reservists into the mix just for fun. A WO I know from a "Toronto area Scottish regiment" was routinely saluted by the locals in Bosnia and Croatia.  Apparently the locals believed that the guy with the fanciest hat was, obviously, in charge!

 

[medaid]

Phil my man, I agree with you on many things, but this I don't. All med personnel inside the wire is mandated to carry a PISTOL, and PISTOL only when they're working. Many people don't even mandate that depending on where they are working at the time. However, once they step out side of the office they have to strap on their pistol. This isn't their fault, but what they're allocated and issued mate.

That's all from me.