U.S. Annexing Canada (split fm Liberal Minority thread)

[Brad Sallows]

Not happening until it happens. Until then a united front still needs to be done to face our adversaries to the south.

Such is the tiresome rhetoric of people who want to exploit a crisis to their own advantage and start by passing under the harrow everyone who doesn't join their team. A characteristic of common/united/popular fronts is that there's always one dominant group working to advance its agenda, finding convenient excuses when it has to break eggs or consort with "the enemy", and treating all the others as useful idiots. When the crisis is approximately over, they start abandoning the useful idiots and consolidating their new position.

Regions of Canada that have been marginalized from time to time by parts of the Canadian establishment should consider acting to improve their own positions domestically and internationally irrespective of what the old guard wants, since the Canadian establishment will go right back to marginalizing those regions after pretending we're all "working together" while carefully making sure the establishment yields as little as possible in the meantime.

It's probable that what the LPC or NDP thinks is the best approach is not the best, since they tend historically to be the two most antagonistic towards the US of the three main parties. There is little to be gained by reinforcing their failures or heeding the advice of people who dislike the US.

We haven't much control over what the US does, particularly the executive. We have a lot of control over what we do to ourselves. We could therefore mitigate the situation by being hard-nosed about removing our own self-inflicted impediments. Of course, the parties and established interests responsible for those impediments are going to resist mitigation while calling for "unity". Ignore them.

 

[suffolkowner]

That is one of my major concerns. The incoming administration with a fairly power drunk leader and his collection of whack job associated is kind of a right now kinda problem.
But China and Russia and their assorted minions and hangers on are a long term threat .
We now find ourselves in a very transactional world.
And I'm not sure a lot of Canadians understand that.

i think lots understand it very well theyre just not willing to make the transaction

 

[RangerRay]

Going full extreme example, I'm nowhere near as optimistic as this guy, but can dream, right?

Craig Scott: An (admittedly unlikely) plan to protect Canada in dangerous times

It's time for all parties to come together and form a Canadian unity government.

www.readtheline.ca

Also archived here.

As much as I want an “all hands on deck” approach, disagree vehemently with this take. All this will do is get the opposition to take part in the “Weekend at Bernie’s” government, when what we need is a new government with a new mandate from the voters. Then the new government can seek a united front.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... what we need is a new government with a new mandate from the voters. Then the new government can seek a united front.

Agreed, but I suspect the campaign'll lead to 1) a winning team being merciful enough to honestly listen to and work with the opposition (especially after beating the living crap out of it during the campaign), and 2) an opposition with the gravitas and and cred to meet in the middle, as well as being pretty bitter with wounds to lick.

Still, anything can happen, especially if a lot of shit hits the fan very quickly & explosively.

 

[Brad Sallows]

To the extent unity of policy is desirable, it's unity between the federal government and provinces, not unity between the parties sitting in the House - particularly if one of them has a majority.

I just overheard something on someone's TV that sounded like Jagmeet Singh calling for measures to make the US feel pain. That idea is somewhere between foolishly counterproductive and dangerously stupid. Tariffs will cause enough pain to US consumers, and they can only blame their own government. A Canadian source of additional pain will tend to harden attitudes against Canada. If deepening economic dysfunction is what the NDP proposes, strike a line through them - they're done contributing.

Canada should continue selling Americans whatever they want to buy, and let them deal with the hardship of their self-imposed economic damage. We should focus on mitigation under our entire control which would be economically advantageous regardless of what the US does.

 

[YZT580]

To the extent unity of policy is desirable, it's unity between the federal government and provinces, not unity between the parties sitting in the House - particularly if one of them has a majority.

I just overheard something on someone's TV that sounded like Jagmeet Singh calling for measures to make the US feel pain. That idea is somewhere between foolishly counterproductive and dangerously stupid. Tariffs will cause enough pain to US consumers, and they can only blame their own government. A Canadian source of additional pain will tend to harden attitudes against Canada. If deepening economic dysfunction is what the NDP proposes, strike a line through them - they're done contributing.

Canada should continue selling Americans whatever they want to buy, and let them deal with the hardship of their self-imposed economic damage. We should focus on mitigation under our entire control which would be economically advantageous regardless of what the US does.

logically, adding punitive tariffs doesn't make any sense at all. If I add 10% to my product, the customer will simply look for a country that will sell the same goods cheaper. I lose the sale. If I put a ban on oil products, or at the very least a serious restriction, it will simply increase the number of tankers crossing to American ports from the mid-east: again I lose the sale. Better to let the American user complain about the higher prices and wait it out.

 

[The Bread Guy]

To the extent unity of policy is desirable, it's unity between the federal government and provinces, not unity between the parties sitting in the House - particularly if one of them has a majority.

In our federal system, unity across provinces is key, especially with stuff where both feds & provinces have a finger in the pie, but in another era, consensus was a good thing to get even in majority government situations.

Then again, lookit the veterans package we got when a minority government stick handled unanimous approval, so it ain't always a perfect way to go either, admittedly

I just overheard something on someone's TV that sounded like Jagmeet Singh calling for measures to make the US feel pain.

That sounds like this.

Canada must ‘shut off’ critical minerals to U.S. to counter Trump: Singh - National | Globalnews.ca

'Donald Trump is not rational. You can't discuss a plan over a meal with him,' NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh said while calling on Canada to stop critical mineral exports to the U.S.

globalnews.ca

Singh calls for party leaders to stop Trump’s tax with retaliation

TORONTO—NDP leader Jagmeet Singh is calling on Canada's party leaders to withhold targeted critical minerals that America needs in addition to implementing retaliatory tariffs if American President Donald Trump moves ahead with his punishing 25 per cent tax on all Canadian goods.

www.ndp.ca

That idea is somewhere between foolishly counterproductive and dangerously stupid. Tariffs will cause enough pain to US consumers, and they can only blame their own government.

And you think POTUS47 isn't going to blame price hikes, job losses and other bad stuff on Canada and Mexico not doing what they've been told to do? You have more faith in the guy being forthright and completely honest about this than I do.

Canada should continue selling Americans whatever they want to buy, and let them deal with the hardship of their self-imposed economic damage.

Selling them whatever they want to buy, by itself, may not work given the point re: who's POTUS47 going to blame for the impact.

We should focus on mitigation under our entire control which would be economically advantageous regardless of what the US does.

1000% - and I'm not hearing details from either Team Blue or Team Red about this, outside of both sides saying some sort of help of some kind will be needed to deal with the impacts.

 

[Remius]

I think you are better off with PP, as deep down I dont think Trump wants tariffs, he just wants Canada to course correct.

I think we (and I include myself) are being a bit naive. Border, defence etc are just the excuse he wants to be able to declare a national emergency to enact those tariffs. There is likely way more to this. The fact is that we could be at 5% defence spending and build a wall on our border. Those tariffs are coming and they are for a reason.

 

[RangerRay]

I think we (and I include myself) are being a bit naive. Border, defence etc are just the excuse he wants to be able to declare a national emergency to enact those tariffs. There is likely way more to this. The fact is that we could be at 5% defence spending and build a wall on our border. Those tariffs are coming and they are for a reason.

Yep. He’s an economic illiterate who thinks the height of 19th century mercantilism was the height of civilization.

He’s just looking for any excuse to do it. And enough people are gullible to believe it.

 

[dapaterson]

He also needs distractions. His commitment to lower the cost of living will fail, so there's a need to demonize the Other as a distraction, and as a way to shift blame.

 

[Brad Sallows]

And you think POTUS47 isn't going to blame price hikes, job losses and other bad stuff on Canada and Mexico not doing what they've been told to do? You have more faith in the guy being forthright and completely honest about this than I do.

He can try. He won't (shouldn't) have the backing of Democrats, NeverTrumpers, and conservatives who are economically literate.

Selling them whatever they want to buy, by itself, may not work given the point re: who's POTUS47 going to blame for the impact.

Whatever we do doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be better than the alternatives. I suppose we're a little bit f*cked if Trump persists in blaming Canada; I suppose we're a lot f*cked if we add to the damage. I prefer "little bit". I don't care about "what if Trump...". There are concrete things we can do to improve domestic trade flows and reduce the dead hands of governments in Canada. There isn't really any time to waste waiting for leadership selections and elections - start immediately. The federal government may be pinned in place because the fortunes of the LPC always surpass those of the country regardless of the crisis, but the provinces are not similarly encumbered.

1000% - and I'm not hearing details from either Team Blue or Team Red about this, outside of both sides saying some sort of help of some kind will be needed to deal with the impacts.

Classic Canadian solution - subsidize chosen beneficiaries, rather than clear out barriers to opportunities that people can take up for themselves. Both the LPC and CPC have people who know what could be done to goose productive output in Canada; they just have to grow a spine and cast out their own malingering and ideologically blinkered sub-factions. If they can't do it, it's another piece of evidence against the mythical existence of "good people in government" ever being more than bench-warmers.

 

[suffolkowner]

im sure there will be some targeted tariffs applied just like the last time. At 25% WCS becomes the most expensive oil in the world. I hope we just have to buy some HIMARS.

 

[KevinB]

I think we (and I include myself) are being a bit naive. Border, defence etc are just the excuse he wants to be able to declare a national emergency to enact those tariffs. There is likely way more to this. The fact is that we could be at 5% defence spending and build a wall on our border. Those tariffs are coming and they are for a reason.

You are an easy target - the solution just maybe is not be such a punching bag.

 

[Haggis]

1000% - and I'm not hearing details from either Team Blue or Team Red about this, outside of both sides saying some sort of help of some kind will be needed to deal with the impacts.

If you think we have a crushing deficit now, just wait until the next government has to roll out CERB 2025/26 to deal with the economic impact of these tariffs. Because it worked so well the last time.

 

[suffolkowner]

You are an easy target - the solution just maybe is not be such a punching bag.

in 200 years we havent been able to. Its not going to change now. Every East Indian we bring in would rather trade with the US than India. Every Chinese we bring in would rather trade with the US than China. We committed ourselves with the FTA. We could get rid of provincial barriers, something thats generations late.

The only other option is to bring 150 million Chinese in and say game on

 

[Jarnhamar]

Yep. He’s an economic illiterate

 

[KevinB]

in 200 years we havent been able to. Its not going to change now. Every East Indian we bring in would rather trade with the US than India. Every Chinese we bring in would rather trade with the US than China. We committed ourselves with the FTA. We could get rid of provincial barriers, something thats generations late.

The only other option is to bring 150 million Chinese in and say game on

1) Trading with the Chinese isn't going to help anyone, unless you enjoy being pulled by Chinese overlords.
2) The fact you have NAFTA and have all these idiotic Provincial squabbles is insane.
3) I would say the last 60 years are the larger issue, not the 140 before that.

Canadian population is a limiting factor, and the fact that we are 10x your pop right next door means it is an attractive market. Canada has failed to develop itself - and also gone and made itself weak and infested by foreign hostile interests (hostile to Canada, and to the USA).

Better buckle up, Trump is here and he has an overwhelming mandate down here for at least 2 years (Mid Terms may reverse that course but who knows) -- Trump is not asking that Canada do anything significantly unreasonable.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Right!?! Hello Canada pot this is kettle.

 

[suffolkowner]

1) Trading with the Chinese isn't going to help anyone, unless you enjoy being pulled by Chinese overlords.
2) The fact you have NAFTA and have all these idiotic Provincial squabbles is insane.
3) I would say the last 60 years are the larger issue, not the 140 before that.

Canadian population is a limiting factor, and the fact that we are 10x your pop right next door means it is an attractive market. Canada has failed to develop itself - and also gone and made itself weak and infested by foreign hostile interests (hostile to Canada, and to the USA).

Better buckle up, Trump is here and he has an overwhelming mandate down here for at least 2 years (Mid Terms may reverse that course but who knows) -- Trump is not asking that Canada do anything significantly unreasonable.

1) well thats the choice isnt it pick your Great Power and we have
2) i can not explain it, maybe this is the threat that allows us to override it
3) no its over 200 yrs of evidence that cant be explained away by the last 60 or 40

We have de developed ourselves

Ill wait until we are actually asked to do something

 

[Kirkhill]

The issue is what is the center.

Many people don't want to admit where it is...

The other issue is that there are not simply two poles, and there are multifaceted issues that mean that the you need about 500 Venn diagrams to find all the various intersection points.

Where is the center of mass of a crowd in motion?

It isn't so much that people don't want to admit where it is as people can't define where it is in a system that is in constant flux.

Stepping back for a second, it is remarkable that an immigration bill this conservative attracted so many Democratic votes. Just five years ago nearly all the Democratic presidential candidates said they would decriminalize illegal border crossings! Much of 2019 and early 2020 was spent scrambling to stake out the furthest left position on immigration—a race encouraged by the groups Ross Barkan has cleverly labeled “The Alphabet Left.” Rather than a traditional pivot to the center after winning the 2020 primary, Biden actually moved to the left to appease Sanders supporters. Four years later, these decisions came home to roost. Now Democrats are playing catch-up, backed into a corner by GOP legislation.

How quickly things change.

A New Year’s Reality Check for Democrats

Vulnerable Democrats tack right on immigration.

www.liberalpatriot.com