"Unionizing" the CF (merged)

[Humphrey Bogart]

NONE.  Go back to origin of this: 
My attempt at levity failed in reply to the CAF having problems with

and the fact that Public Works has their fingers into everything.......that unionizing the CAF may not have any affect, as another 'unionized' organization is involved; an organization that really doesn't care one way or the other about the CAF, only their stated responsibilities/MOU, nothing else.  Union agreements keep organizations like Public Works and all Government union members bound to work only within their defined agreements, not to stray outside of those agreements; if it isn't written in your job description, you are not to do it.  In effect, this can be shown to be one flaw with CAF procurement, the Public Sector side of the procedure. 

Other than being unionized, the Union usually has nothing to do with what Public Works does, only the conditions that they work under in their job descriptions.  Sorry if I am all over the map there.

I just can't see the military being unionized as being beneficial to anyone; least of all, the nation.

Any military union should be "For the soldiers, run by the soldiers"

It should exclude the entire officer corps and I would like to think of it as the institution's very own sergeant major.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Union agreements keep organizations like Public Works and all Government union members bound to work only within their defined agreements, not to stray outside of those agreements; if it isn't written in your job description, you are not to do it.   

How many arty rounds you fired George?  Plotted?  Dispatched any jumpers??  No?  Why??

 

[mariomike]

It should exclude the entire officer corps and I would like to think of it as the institution's very own sergeant major.

From what I have seen and understand of unions, management is always non-union.

 

[Jed]

From what I have seen and understand of unions, management is always non-union.

I thought that Sgts were the backbone of the Army?  How does that square with a union?  Just my opinion but the union thing for the CF is total BS.  Let's all get our USSR political officers in the mix too?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I thought that Sgts were the backbone of the Army?  How does that square with a union?  Just my opinion but the union thing for the CF is total BS.  Let's all get our USSR political officers in the mix too?

Squares just fine........define what you think a Union does please?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Ask your Sgt. to take the ridiculously crappy boots to the publics attention.........and he'll say "Yea, Ok?"  Why not, he's your backbone, isn't he?
Now ask your Union........

 

[Jarnhamar]

Hypothetically speaking what would a military union be involved in?

Poor PER scores?
Work place harassment?
Members being posted when they don't want to?
Living conditions while on exercise or deployed?
Food quality  (like in Poland)
FORCE test failures?

 

[TCM621]

I do not support unions in general and for the military in particular. However,  we do deserve a seat at the table and I don't think we have one. I envision an association, which is a stakeholder at all major DND related discussions,  which provides the voice of the rank and file.  It would also be free to speak out on behalf of the troops which is something that CAF leadership is either unable or unwilling to do.

For example,  the CAF association would  lobby the government to fix PLD or the home equity loss program. We have the ombudsman who does good work but doesn't seem to have any teeth as his recommendations are ignored year after year. If we could go public saying, "Sorry,  (government of the day ) according to the troops themselves you are not doing everything to support them like you say you are. Here are 5 things they have been asking for and you keep denying to fix,"  it would go a long way to getting things done.

The make up of it would be problematic but it might be the natural evolution of the messes. We all know our messes are basically dead. We basically just have empty public bars instead if the private clubs we used to have. If messes functioned as the local association. meeting point,  meetings might be worth going to. Or it could be an outside organization but we would have to find some equivalent of of workers vs management. NCMs vs officers is a little to simplistic because a chief is much more "management" than a captain. Snr leadership is often seen as political and out of touch with the rank and file and frankly they are already in a position to make themselves heard if they wanted to. It would be a waste of time to have the same people in charge of an association.

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[c_canuk]

didn't think Unionizing the CF would be a good thing until MES was implemented. A Union might have been able to stop that clusterfrig.

Bad decisions have damaged our moral, our compensation and most importantly, our ability to support the CAF.

Sometimes a Union's worst and best trait is to mire the managers so they can't make bad crippling decisions. Those of us in the working ranks had no way to stop it, we could only watch aghast as our trade was burned down around us.

this crap with DPPD right now is ridiculous. I have a 2 guys who have identical functional quals and rank, one gets spec pay because he got his 5s before 2011, and one doesn't cause he got his after. A retro ruling is that CST is not a new trade, so in 2011 spec pay should not have been frozen and my other guy should be getting it.

right now the one who was getting spec pay is getting money he's entitled to clawed back, while the other is staring at $22k in his bank account he's not entitled to that's growing by ~$500 every month. This money he can't spend is being taxed.

bet a union would fix this crap right quick.

Edited: fix language

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Hypothetically speaking what would a military union be involved in?

Poor PER scores?
Work place harassment?
Members being posted when they don't want to?
Living conditions while on exercise or deployed?
Food quality  (like in Poland)
FORCE test failures?

I would say all but postings.  Management always has the right to manage, unless they sign certain things away, like seniority.  Aren't all those other things already subject to a grievance process?  So nothing would change for them, except you'd have professional help, so management would need to be spot on.  Again, is that a horrible thing to ask??

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Any military union should be "For the soldiers, run by the soldiers"

It should exclude the entire officer corps and I would like to think of it as the institution's very own sergeant major.

Which would work for the Army, I guess. Even though, how do you define "soldiers"? Would they include the cooks, who may have more in common with the RCAF and RCN cooks than with the infantryman?

That would be one of the big problems: defining who is who, and on what basis. We may talk about the civil service union, but the reality is that they have unions. Their unions (plural) are generally organized along the lines of the type of work they do within the civil service. In the other security services, you have unions for the police - all policemen do police work, a single type of task - same for the firefighters. In the civil service at large, you have union for the professionals, another one for the clerks type of employees, another one for the engineers, etc, etc. All of this makes sense as each group is generally engaged in the same type of undertaking.

But in the military, would we have to have unions for each similar task? For instance, would there be a union for seamen, in the Navy generally, or would, say, the Mar Eng (who already have a "union" as we all know - it says so in the Naval Engineering Manuals and Orders  ;D) be in a union with the various Air techs, or with the Combat engineers?

From what I have seen and understand of unions, management is always non-union.

So what's your point mariomike? In the CAF, the role of officers is to lead, not to manage. While there are some relationships more akin to management here and there, that is not the officer's corps primary function. A Brigade commander's job is to lead his brigade in combat but he could next (or first) be posted to Ottawa in a ADM job; the job of a ship's C.O. is to lead his crew into combat, but he could also be posted as a director in a HQ at some point. Would they be taken in and out of the union depending on their actual posting?

 

[George Wallace]

bet a union would fix this shit right quick.

Have you heard of Phoenix?    >

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

didn't think Unionizing the CF would be a good thing until MES was implemented. A Union might have been able to stop that clusterfuck.

Bad decisions have damaged our moral, our compensation and most importantly, our ability to support the CAF.

Sometimes a Union's worst and best trait is to mire the managers so they can't make bad crippling decisions. Those of us in the working ranks had no way to stop it, we could only watch aghast as our trade was burned down around us.

this shit with DPPD right now is ridiculous. I have a 2 guys who have identical functional quals and rank, one gets spec pay because he got his 5s before 2011, and one doesn't cause he got his after. A retro ruling is that CST is not a new trade, so in 2011 spec pay should not have been frozen and my other guy should be getting it.

right now the one who was getting spec pay is getting money he's entitled to clawed back, while the other is staring at $22k in his bank account he's not entitled to that's growing by ~$500 every month. This money he can't spend is being taxed.

bet a union would fix this shit right quick.

Maybe not fix,.....never a guarantee, but someone would need to make a pretty good case in front of an arbitrator. 
Nothing wrong with getting things right......

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Have you heard of Phoenix?    >

Oh,...you mean the system where managers got bonus's and not fired??  Thanks for seeing it my way George, glad I could convince you.

 

[Jed]

Unions in the Civi world work for the first couple of decades then just like Communism, human nature causes the system to fail.

A union in the military would just slowly gum up the effectiveness of Canada's military. Good leadership should solve the problems without the BS thrown in by Unions. Just how do you think this work when in a SHTF situation?

 

[Jarnhamar]

I would say all but postings.  Management always has the right to manage, unless they sign certain things away, like seniority.  Aren't all those other things already subject to a grievance process?  So nothing would change for them, except you'd have professional help, so management would need to be spot on.  Again, is that a horrible thing to ask??

No, not at all.

Oh,...you mean the system where managers got bonus's and not fired??  Thanks for seeing it my way George, glad I could convince you.

Checkmate.

 

[mariomike]

I thought that Sgts were the backbone of the Army?  How does that square with a union? 

My union experience is municipal.

Sergeants have been in the union since 1918. Anyone above the rank of Sergeant is not in the union.
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/rank/

Just my opinion but the union thing for the CF is total BS.  Let's all get our USSR political officers in the mix too?

Unions in the Civi world work for the first couple of decades then just like Communism, human nature causes the system to fail.

Not going to argue with you about what's good for the army or Communism.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Unions in the Civi world work for the first couple of decades then just like Communism, human nature causes the system to fail.

A union in the military would just slowly gum up the effectiveness of Canada's military. Good leadership should solve the problems without the BS thrown in by Unions. Just how do you think this work when in a SHTF situation?

Can you explain or just quote stuff you haven't any experience in?    What BS does a Union "throw in"?  If just throwing the word 'good leadership" was the answer, then why are we even talking about this?

And in the last 28 years I've been in a few SHTF situations and it doesn't effect it one iota.  My boss directs and I do.......

 

[mariomike]

And in the last 28 years I've been in a few SHTF situations and it doesn't effect it one iota.  My boss directs and I do.......

Might as well throw the Ontario Occupational Health and Safety Act, Section 43, (1) and (2).2 in,

Union or no union, Corrections, and emergency services, do not have the right to refuse work where the circumstances are inherent in their work and/or if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person.

 

[Journeyman]

Going back to the article that kicked off this latest 'discussion,'  what would a military union do that is not already the purview of the Ombudsman and his staff?