"Unionizing" the CF (merged)

[mariomike]

You missed the second question:

How are the amounts of union dues to be paid by employees determined?
Union dues are set by the bargaining agents and calculated either by using a fixed rate or as a percentage of the employee’s salary.

Thank-you for pointing that out.  Percentage of salary seems more fair.

The RCMP aren't unionized (yet) but they still get overtime when they work extra hours.

According to their website, "We seek to exercise our right to engage in free collective bargaining with our Employer, a right currently enjoyed by all police officers in Canada, except for RCMP members."

 

[Jarnhamar]

Thread reminded me of this story.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/659988/German-army-pulls-out-NATO-training-exercise-exceeding-overtime-limits
Soldiers taking part in a month-long drill in Norway returned to their homeland after less than two weeks when they fell foul of strict new rules by Berlin which limit the amount of time recruits can be on active duty.

It follows claims savage budget cuts have left German forces training with broom handles instead of guns.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Do you mind if I ask what were some of the  problems or issues working with unionized Dutch marines you noticed ?

Weapons unusable due to dirt, refusing to work when ordered by their Officers, NCOS who would be shot in any normal military for their levels of overt insolence, and failing completely in just about every task they were assigned apart from disembarking from the LPDs and sitting on their ample asses. And then there's the long hair and other unkempt appearance things, but I can forgive a lot in that department as long as troops can complete their tasks on time and to standard.

We had Whisky Company, RNLMC attached to us in 45 Cdo and they were 'professional' marines with standards similar to ours. It was fun to wind them up about their unionized brethren, who they would have gladly gunned down given the chance I believe.

 

[Navy_Pete]

..
In reality most of the military's effort is spent on example 1, poor planning and no accountability for officers poor planning/ lack of consultation with Snr NCOs. If the CAF had to pay hourly for what we do and what we bring to the table the way we work and the hours we work would be wildly different. As it stands a CO can order his troops to be at work an hour early and stay a few hours late every day and nobody can argue. The Navy does it regularly with cold moves and such and never considers the impact the irregular hours and extra hours have on morale.
..

Most of the irregular timings for all that stuff have to do with the work hours for the unionized civilian employees, particularly if you are ammunitioning.  Ships will also stay out overnight because of overtime considerations for tugs, or CM to IOL rather than get the private fuel barge to come alongside due to the surcharge.  Basically ship's fuel is a different budget and people don't account for lost productivity or SS time what making these decisions.  I blame the MBA culture of 'maximizining stakeholder outputs to achieve strategic objectives at the tactical level'. :facepalm:

 

[dapaterson]

Sort of like "We saved $50 on your airfare by giving you four flights that take an extra three hours".  Can we get a little HRG love here?

 

[dimsum]

Weapons unusable due to dirt, refusing to work when ordered by their Officers, NCOS who would be shot in any normal military for their levels of overt insolence, and failing completely in just about every task they were assigned apart from disembarking from the LPDs and sitting on their ample asses. And then there's the long hair and other unkempt appearance things, but I can forgive a lot in that department as long as troops can complete their tasks on time and to standard.

We had Whisky Company, RNLMC attached to us in 45 Cdo and they were 'professional' marines with standards similar to ours. It was fun to wind them up about their unionized brethren, who they would have gladly gunned down given the chance I believe.

So, only part of the Dutch military is unionized?  How would that work?

 

[daftandbarmy]

So, only part of the Dutch military is unionized?  How would that work?

I'm not exactly sure, but the Danes and Norwegians are similar I think. I believe it has something to do with mass, conscript, Continental armies required to defend the homeland, which can be unionized, and a small number of professionals available to deploy internationally to meet NATO and other commitments. This may have changed with recent moves to professionalize vs. conscript a larger proportion of Continental European militaries.

I do know that the Dutch weren't impressed with the performance of their 'unionized' conscripts at Srebrenica, which resulted in the massacre that brought down their government, so have changed their policies on how and where they deploy them.

 

[mariomike]

Although it hasn't happened since 1945, there may come a time "during hostilities or during a time of war as declared by the Government of Canada" when civilians are drafted into the CAF.

When, like it or not, Reservists are involuntarily activated to full-time and, like it or not, may be sent out of Canada.

VR's will / may be put on hold until "cessation of hostilities".

What good will a union do then?

 

[Jed]

Although it hasn't happened since 1945, there may come a time "during hostilities or during a time of war as declared by the Government of Canada" when civilians are drafted into the CAF.

When, like it or not, Reservists are involuntarily activated to full-time and, like it or not, may be sent out of Canada.

VR's will / may be put on hold until "cessation of hostilities".

What good will a union do then?

This pretty much is what I meant when I said a SHTF scenario.  Not just a crunch time occurring that resolves its self in a week.

 

[Ostrozac]

Although it hasn't happened since 1945, there may come a time "during hostilities or during a time of war as declared by the Government of Canada" when civilians are drafted into the CAF.

Well, the bad news is that conscription would almost certainly violate the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, but the good news is that it is a situation tailor made for the Notwithstanding Clause to be invoked. Of course, a law passed under Notwithstanding has to renewed every 5 years, leading to a major political crisis 5 years into the next total war.

But hey, isn't a political crisis over conscription one of the signs that Canada isn't fighting a skirmish anymore? It's a great national tradition, how come they never made a heritage moment about a Conscription Crisis?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The notwithstanding clause lets you set aside the rights and freedoms of art 2 and arts 7 to 15. Basically, the fundamental freedoms such as freedom of conscience, of belief, of expression, then the  judicial rights against search, seizure, your rights if arrested, etc (but including the right to life and liberty - but this one is already limited by "as exist" in a free and democratic society, which includes the right to conscript in most democracies I know), and the most important for setting aside: The right to non-discrimination based on sex, origin, religion, etc.

Now why would we want to restrict that last one? You implement conscription, bring it down equally on women, LGBT Canadians and members of any faith, I say. They want full equality - no reason not to do their fair share of the killing/dying protection of those rights requires.
 

 

[Ostrozac]

The notwithstanding clause lets you set aside the rights and freedoms of art 2 and arts 7 to 15. Basically, the fundamental freedoms such as freedom of conscience, of belief, of expression, then the  judicial rights against search, seizure, your rights if arrested, etc (but including the right to life and liberty - but this one is already limited by "as exist" in a free and democratic society, which includes the right to conscript in most democracies I know), and the most important for setting aside: The right to non-discrimination based on sex, origin, religion, etc.

Personally, I suspect that Conscription fails Article 7 -- security of the person. But your legal opinion may be equally valid, backed by common standards throughout world democracys. Anyway, it would be fun to see the supreme court case. Well, it would be fun if wasn't happening in the middle of World War III.

 

[OldSolduer]

Now why would we want to restrict that last one? You implement conscription, bring it down equally on women, LGBT Canadians and members of any faith, I say. They want full equality - no reason not to do their fair share of the killing/dying protection of those rights requires.

I'm sure the groups you've mentioned would find sufficient reason to restrict conscription to eligible males only....white heteros, who have had the "privilege" of fighting and dying for for Canada for 150 years. I can hear the screams of anguish now.....

 

[mariomike]

I'm sure the groups you've mentioned would find sufficient reason to restrict conscription to eligible males only....white heteros, who have had the "privilege" of fighting and dying for for Canada for 150 years.

Canada has not had conscription in over 70 years.

The US conscripted males of all colours during Vietnam,

"Blacks suffered disproportionately high casualty rates in Vietnam. In 1965 alone they comprised almost one out of every four combat deaths."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#Disproportion_of_African_American_casualties

"while blacks only made up about 11% of the population of the US."

 

[Kirkhill]

Not sure whether to tax him, hire him or conscript him

https://v.connatix.com/0745056c-c1ee-4832-9a52-eb7ea7e2826c/Contents/49406/95e4bbbe-5a57-4fef-9152-464a0ef81007_desktop_low_360_mute.mp4

 

[mariomike]

If conscription / draft was ever re-instated, how could / would that work with a unionized military?

Unionization during peacetime might be an interesting social experiment, but during wartime?

 

[OldSolduer]

Unionization during peacetime might be an interesting social experiment, but during wartime?

I don't know about the rest of the readership but the CAF is not a place for "social experiments". The CAF has a job to do and "social experiments" only distract from that.

 

[mariomike]

I don't know about the rest of the readership but the CAF is not a place for "social experiments". The CAF has a job to do and "social experiments" only distract from that.

Thank-you.

I did not suggest the peacetime CAF unionize. I understand the CAF has a job to do.

My question was, "If conscription / draft was ever re-instated, how could / would that work with a unionized military?"

"...during wartime?"

Although it hasn't happened since 1945, there may come a time "during hostilities or during a time of war as declared by the Government of Canada" when civilians are drafted into the CAF.

When, like it or not, Reservists are involuntarily activated to full-time and, like it or not, may be sent out of Canada.

VR's will / may be put on hold until "cessation of hostilities".

What good will a union do then?

I do not believe any of the readership served during Conscription.  So, I thought it was a reasonable question.

We have been debating this 11-page  ' "Unionizing" the CF ' thread for the last thirteen years.

I have no dog in the fight either way. Just asking. 

 

[Loachman]

I don't know about the rest of the readership but the CAF is not a place for "social experiments".

Huh? We've been a venue for social experimentation for almost four decades that I remember.

 

[mariomike]

Huh? We've been a venue for social experimentation for almost four decades that I remember.

Saw this from a thread fifteen years ago,
http://army.ca/forums/threads/2435.0/nowap.html

Why I Quit: A Sampling of the Survey

Some responses to the Canadian Forces' survey:

(The Canadian Forces) is now no more than a social experiment conducted by politicians who have no idea what the ultimate role of the military is."