US Army Probes POW Abuse - Video

[Pte.Nomercy]

Michael Dorosh,

To respond to your question/ disagreements:

Yes, this veteran in question did see atrocities first hand, such as the entire wiping out of civilian villages for one. As to if he was apart of that event, only he knows, but he did talk about seeing first hand of such things.

When I was describing Colin Powell‘s reaction, I was implying that he was lying through his teeth. I have read some where, as soon as I find it you will hear of it, that he even witnessed some atrocities and how he was disturbed by them.

Even without this, being in the military position he was in before and the high position he is now, it is impossible for him to be "surprised" and "not seen this before" as it is his responsibility to know such things and prevent them.

So even if he didn‘t see these things in Vietnam, he sure as heck knew about what happened there when he was top brass in the white house, and he definitely knew that (a minority)of US troops did atrocities before Iraq, even though he denied it on Larry King. If he was not educated or had knowledge about this, he wouldn‘t be fit for the job right?

As for drafty vs volunteer, I didn‘t mean to give more then the other any significance, what matters is that those men were sent there for whatever reason and suffered immensely. However, I would not believe American statistics, as I for one, have seen at least 5 different figures in books etc that talked about how many people were sent over there and how many were drafted or volunteers. The veteran I know personally in question was a volunteer.

I also agree with your statement about a "minority" doing atrocities. I never said "All Americans in Vietnam/Somalia/Iraq were committing atrocities" I simply said that it had happened and that it was wrong no matter how insignificant the number of criminals performed these acts.

In every occasion where such things happen it is always a minority that smears the reputation of the majority of brave soldiers.

In fact, these US Iraqi pics happened because of a minority as well. Not to mention when Canadian‘s went to Somalia, it predominately took only ONE person‘s actions, Mcpl. Clayton Matchee, to destroy the entire reputation of the CF and disband the Canadian Airborne Regiment that consisted of around 700 people.

Hopefully that cleared thing up even more!

If anyone wishes to reply please feel free to PM (Private Message) or contact me, as I don't want this forum to turn into a 50 page argument.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Show me an army with no atrocities on its record, and I‘ll show you an army that‘s never left its barracks for so much as a p-ss-up.

No reasonable amount of training and supervision can guarantee that sadists won‘t indulge themselves or that well-balanced people won‘t occasionally and temporarily give in to hate and rage. I will be greatly surprised if it can be proven that these people did not know 1/ what they were doing, and 2/ that it was wrong. Individual and systemic failings must be dealt with where they exist, but not permitted to stain any further.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The American‘s have a notorious history with atrocities on their prisoners

To go back to the original statement; perhaps I should have drawn the line between civilian atrocities and the treatment of legitimate prisoners of war earlier; I made the mistake of dragging all war crimes into it, but I can live with that. My point was that I interpreted "notorious" to mean "widespread", as in it was a routine, matter of course for units of the US Army to engage in the murder of innocent people (be they civilians or not). If that is not what you meant, then I‘ve made a mountain of a molehill.

Yes, the US has had some unfortuntate incidents in their past - the (alleged?) massacre in the early days of the Korean War, for example. I think you, I and Brad agree that no one is really "clean" when it comes to this incidents, nor do any of us suggest that this should be allowed to happen when it is discovered.

Since we agree that these incidents are the result of a small minority - in both the US and Canadian armies - I am satisified that our views on this are reasonably similar. Somalia unfortunately showed that we are no better or worse than the Americans as far as these things go; I suppose if we had to field 500,000 soldiers in the blink of an eye, we would also have a discipline problem or two as well.

 

[Bill Smy]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
[qb]

Yes, the US has had some unfortuntate incidents in their past - the (alleged?) massacre in the early days of the Korean War, for example. I think you, I and Brad agree that no one is really "clean" when it comes to this incidents, nor do any of us suggest that this should be allowed to happen when it is discovered.

Since we agree that these incidents are the result of a small minority - in both the US and Canadian armies - I am satisified that our views on this are reasonably similar. Somalia unfortunately showed that we are no better or worse than the Americans as far as these things go; [/qb]

Michael, I agree that Canadians are "no better or worse than the Americans". I have had discussions with WW2 vets (some with more than one gallantry award on their chest) who have admitted that members of their regiment had committed war crimes. One said to me that the CO instructed a WO2 to take prisoners to the rear collection point, 1/2 mile to their rear. The WO2 was back in less than 10 minutes. No questions asked. Another stated that a popular officer was killed by a sniper and for three days the regiment took no prisoners.

We must not looser perspective. First abuse or criminal behaviour should never be swept under the rug. Second, we should never beat our chests and proclaim to the world that we are better at this than the Americans, because we are not.

Reading the offical report of the investigation of the abuse in Iraq, I am dumbfounded that the chain of command was not aware of what was going on; just as I cannot believe that a Somolian was tortured and beat to death by Canadians soldiers within easy earshot of cohorts and superiors, with no one going to investigate.

There are a number of questions as to the responsibility of the chain of command in Iraq. I do not have the full report, but certainly the following should be noted:

(1) Reservists in a "called up" formation are hesitant to discipline individuals who are their next door neighbours back home.;

(2) There was no subjective analysis of how large the MP battalions should be in relation to the number of prisoners (i.e. in one case one battalion oversaw 4,000);

(3) When others complained of the abuse, the chain of command failed;

(4) The leaders had very little experience in this type of operation;

(5) Medical personnel who treated the abused did not report the problems;

(6) Incompetent leaders were not removed.

(7) Junior personnel seemed to operate unsupervised.

In any event, there a are a number of lessons to be learned by the Canadian chain of command.

 

[Marauder]

First, let me just point out that these Iraqi prisoners were neither summarily executed, nor were they, from what I have gathered, subjected to any "torture" worse than getting smacked around some or getting stripped nekkid. Yes, the people taking pictures are RTFO. Breakdown of discipline and lack of common foocking sense. And I suppose throw in just plain old stupid (what modern day NATO soldier is so beyond numptyfoocked that they take VIDEO and PHOTOS of crap they KNOW will come back to bite them in the ARSE?!?!?!?!) Stupid, stoopid, STUUUUUUUUPID!!!

Add in that with a BGen who‘s favorite line to the media is that it‘s not any branch‘s fault, (ie HER branch), not any unit‘s fault (ie units under HER command), nor any individuals‘s fault (ie stupid troops under HER purvue). All the while saying the interrogators and MI types made those (not HER) troops do it. She‘s so fecking mealy mouthed that when I first heard her contortions on camera I swore she took the appropriate course at NDHQ for evading, obfuscating, and spinning the truth. So it‘s pretty obvious that the firings & BCDs should start high up the chain.

Now, let me reiterate: ***none of these Iraqi POWs were shot, stabbed, electrocuted, dismembered, beheaded, burnt, sliced, etc.*** None of the keen old ultraviolence, eh me good ‘lil droogies?

Last point, whenever Americans are executed, shot or stabbed or raped after capture, burnt beyond recognition once killed, beat all to h$ll for shits and giggles, or have their head cut off on video (Daniel Pearl), none of these atrocities seem to upset any "moderate" arseholes in the Arab/Muslim world. There‘s a few muted scuffling of feet and coughing, but the general consensus is that‘s what the "occupiers" (which I guess include liberal journalists and contractors trying to help along the process of rebuilding the shithole Iraq is) should expect and thus accept. But show a few pics of some random naked jackass who was presumably in the prison for trying to kill the "infidels", and its all "stand back kids, it might flare up a bit".

I call horseshiite. I say if the "Arab street" wants a reason to be pissed off, then they should get a damm good reason. Big boys game, big boys rules. Eye for an eye, and put the fear of Allah in the sumbiitches.

 

[48Highlander]

Attitudes like that will only make the situation in Iraq worse. Yes, it is a double standard to them to get pissed off at americans for humiliating POW‘s while shrugging their shoulders when Iraqi militants execute foreign contractors. But that doesn‘t mean that we can be insensitive to their concerns. The American troops over their are supposed to be setting a good example...they‘re supposed to be demonstrating to the Iraqi‘s how we treat people in a civilized democratic society. While the treatment of those prisoners was not as bad as what has been done to US troops and civilians, it still sets a negative example and makes Americans look like hypocrites. If the soldiers responsible are not held fully accountable, and if it is not clearly demonstrated to the Iraqi populace that they ARE being held accountable, it‘ll deffinitely damage the way Iraqi civilians view US soldiers. And that‘s something the US does NOT need.

 

[K. Ash]

I think it was on CSmonitor.com that some high ranking pentagon official said "4 idiots just lost the war". I wonder who he was referring to?

 

[xFusilier]

Yesterday, they were interviewing a member of Iraq‘s new governing council, on the radio station that I listen to. They asked what the council, and Iraqis in general thought of the reports/photos of prisoner abuse. Interestingly, he downplayed the events big time. He said that several members of the council visit the prisons regularly to assess conditions, talk to inmates, etc. He said that most people knew that this was not indicative of the treatment received by prisoners. He indicated that, from an Iraqi point of view, this has little effect, in the grand scheme of things.

Perhaps, on the other hand a synonym for Iraqi Governing Council is "American Apointed Puppet Government". Don‘t forget that a guy named Petain was very supportive of the people that gave him his job, that didn‘t make him right. All in all at best he‘s probably about as credible as Al-Jazeera.

The fact that the media has raised such an amout of fuss over this arguement is the realization that soliders who are representing what can be seen as the worlds premier liberal democracy should be held to a higher standard of conduct than supporters of a political ideology that spawned a brutal police state which operated for some 30 years.

The question as to whether or not the acts documented in the images shown on 60 minutes can be defined as torture is irrelevant. If you are trying to win a war on an ideology, it really doesn‘t matter what you or consider those acts to be, it matters in reference to how much of a stimulus it is for individuals to allow themselves to be recruited to terrorist organizations and or the donation of funds to those same organizations.

 

[Marauder]

Screw sensitivity and to h#ll with ideology.
Grab them by the balls, and their black hearts and medival minds will follow.

 

[48Highlander]

Yeah.

"Give us your hearts and minds or we‘ll burn your god**** huts down".

Worked real well in Vietnam.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Marauder:
[qb] Screw sensitivity and to h#ll with ideology.
Grab them by the balls, and their black hearts and medival minds will follow. [/qb]

Yeah, that‘s right, their medieval minds who learned to fly commercial airliners. Underestimating one‘s enemies is always dangerous. Let‘s kid ourselves into thinking they don‘t have the ability to make nuclear bombs while we‘re at it.

 

[Kirkhill]

Marauder

It has been tried. It didn‘t work. It was the working strategy for a good chunk of the Senior US Staff in Vietnam.

Kind of drowned out the advice of the Green Berets and various allied advisors.

 

[Padraig OCinnead]

Friggin well said Marauder!

Spot on.

I don‘t believe it has been tried. Not to the full solution. You don‘t negotiate with coyotes. you destroy them. These buggers never tried negotiating with us on say 9/10? Or maybe before the other dozen despicable cowardly attacks? Like he said.. Big boys games, big boys rules..

 

[48Highlander]

So what are you suggesting, genocide? If that‘s your solution then you‘re just as much of a fanatic as Osama and his ilk.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Padraig OCinnead:
[qb] Friggin well said Marauder!

Spot on.

I don‘t believe it has been tried. Not to the full solution. You don‘t negotiate with coyotes. you destroy them. These buggers never tried negotiating with us on say 9/10? Or maybe before the other dozen despicable cowardly attacks? Like he said.. Big boys games, big boys rules.. [/qb]

Hey, "Big Boy", can you even explain to the crowd why the 9/11 attacks occurred?

If you can‘t do that, you are in no position to plan out a strategy for preventing another attack or punishing those who perpetrated the crime.

Has it occurred to you that these "cowardly attacks" were done for a reason?

I am not defending them, I am saying that each story has two sides.

As for your other thoroughly moronic comments, I believe Hitler compared all Jews to lice and rats, too. Who exactly are you calling "coyotes"? Coyotes don‘t learn to fly airlines or pilot speed boats, nor do they blow up warships or bring down towers.

Perhaps the root causes are more important than the acts of violence themselves.

How do you cure a cold? Cut off someone‘s head?

Get a grip.

 

[Padraig OCinnead]

Don‘t you cheapen what I said with something as simpleminded as racism. This has nothing to do with it.

Why did they attack 9/11?

Because they are black guard thugs who lay low in the shadows waiting to ambush! Dirty black thieves of the night.

This is not genocide! We have nothing against the Muslims, Arabs and maybe even Taliban(even they could get over that whole strictness thing).

Just those dirty friggin terrorists who wish to do us harm.

Get overyourselves and stop thinking in the gutters like that.

 

[Padraig OCinnead]

Sorry if that sounded like a rant!

Slainte,

 

[winchable]

Moral highground, ain‘t it a *****?

Mon Dieu, imagine, if we didn‘t have that we wouldn‘t be able to say "us" and "them"

 

[48Highlander]

"Dirty black thieves of the night"? God you even sound like a fanatic.

The problems with torturing, raping, and executing prisoners are numerous but let‘s deal with just the main one: what happens if we‘re wrong? hypothetical scenario:

20 Iraqi‘s get arrested on suspicion of terrorism. They‘re beaten and mutilated, and eventually confess to their crimes. The next day they are executed.

What does that gain us? Even if only one of the 20 was innocent and confessed under duress, you‘ve now recruited his friends and his family onto your enemies side.

Not to mention the fact that stopping that kind of nonsense is the only currently viable justification for the American invasion of Iraq.

And lastly, if you‘ll recall, Iraqis had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11. So I‘m really not sure what the **** you‘re going on about.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I think Marauder had an awesome point.

"Last point, whenever Americans are executed, shot or stabbed or raped after capture, burnt beyond recognition once killed, beat all to h$ll for shits and giggles, or have their head cut off on video (Daniel Pearl), none of these atrocities seem to upset any "moderate" arseholes in the Arab/Muslim world."
What the americans did is brutal but some of the guys over there have acted a million times worse and it‘s a shame that it‘s often so quickly forgotten about in the news.

About the prisoners being abused in the prison, thats one of the stupidest things a soldier can do. For example. A guy gets arrested and thrown in prison. He‘s subjected to all the humiliation, tourture and crap that we‘ve seen in the news. The guy gets out of prison. He‘s not too happy with the US and he doesnt trust them very much. A american patrol is driving by and stops him. They want to take him in for questionin, what are the chances he‘s going to go along willingly? Whats the chances he;s now going to throw a grenade into the hummer and beetle off?
How about if an american patrol is driving by and he just happens to be standing next to an RPG 7. Would you pick it up and take a shot at the american patrol? If i was in that guys shoes i‘d do it in a second.

I wonder how many soldiers that dumbass lindsy england (was that her name?) and the rest of the guys in that prison have killed with their little joke.

Thats straying a bit from the direction of the thread though sorry