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US Presidential Election 2024 - Trump vs Harris - Vote Hard with a Vengence

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I'd like to see that source, because after searching, nothing I could find corroborates that statement. In fact, while I couldn't find any actually polling data, interviews with independents post-debate indicated they either weren't swayed, or leaned Harris more often than Trump:




Even RFK Jr. doesn't think this went well toward gaining support from independents:


Judging from your links, perhaps you're looking in the wrong place.
 
I just asked for a source for the comments.


I don’t 100% trust polls because, again, 2016 - but I did watch the debate and I’m not sure how comments like “3 v 1” translate to “Trump won the debate”.

I don't think Trump won the debate. I also don't think it was fairly moderated and Trump was heavily disadvantaged. I also don't think the MSM would ever admit Trump won regardless (notwithstanding the operation to oust a down-in-polls Biden from the ticket).

I do think Trump will benefit more than Harris from that debate.
 
I do think Trump will benefit more than Harris from that debate.
I’m genuinely curious- how so? Trump was true to form but didn’t keep his poop in a group particularly well. He showed nothing that we haven’t seen a bunch of times before. Anyone not already on his side would be unlikely to be brought over.

Harris went head to head with him for the first time, was deemed relatively unproven, and there was uncertainty as to how she would acquit herself in that environment. Generally the perception seems to be that she held up well. She entered into this debate with, I would argue, far more possible voters with doubts or questions than he did. I think she was able to resolve a lot of those and show herself capable. And all of that is before contending with any of the solid blows she managed to land.

What’s your take on this having been advantageous for him?

One interesting metric- stock in Trump’s social media company, widely seen as a barometer of investor sentiment in the man himself, paused its steady slide after the debate to instead jump right off a cliff. It’s now trading at a quarter of the heights it hit following the DWAC merger. Those with true financial skin in the game seem to be steadily trending in a particular direction in terms of their confidence in him.
 
The simple metric of underdog vs establishment. The debate moderation was widely observed as biased. Yes, Trump missed opportunities and seemed flustered, but as Brad pointed out he did not "plumb new depths". MSM and across D and R lines are stating Harris won a debate that many lay-person observers view as unfair and therefore useless. There is no clean win here, Harris did not distinguish by participating in a clean debate, rather appears to have benefitted from "cheating".

Advantage - Trump.
 
The simple metric of underdog vs establishment. The debate moderation was widely observed as biased. Yes, Trump missed opportunities and seemed flustered, but as Brad pointed out he did not "plumb new depths". MSM and across D and R lines are stating Harris won a debate that many lay-person observers view as unfair and therefore useless. There is no clean win here, Harris did not distinguish by participating in a clean debate, rather appears to have benefitted from "cheating".

Advantage - Trump.
How did she cheat? By seemingly knowing answers to questions that any proper staffer would have easily figured out would be on a national presidential debate, because they are on every presidential debate?

It’s not a stretch to think that they would ask about immigration, southern border, abortion, or high profile events from the last two administrations, since the candidates were in either the Trump or Biden administrations.
 
I’m actually not sure you are being serious in anything you wrote above.
Are there any allegations more substantial than "some people I know"?

Who was pardoned, and in exchange for what?

What secrets were sold, to whom, and in exchange for what?
 
I’m genuinely curious- how so?
It's plausible. Angry flustered off-topic lying Trump is something people have been seeing for over 8 years. He spent too much time digressing about the past even when he was trying to correct Harris when the moderators wouldn't step in (which is as it should have been for both candidates), but did manage to close with at least one key point: what was done during the prior administration?

He benefits from the perception that the moderators were actively on-side for Harris. A couple of interventions against Harris would have mitigated that, but there were none. Whatever angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin debates people want to have about the substance of "these things merited correction; nothing else did", the appearance is manifestly one-sided. Having read parts of the transcript, I'm struck by how often the moderators felt they needed to interject at length. That's not a role for moderators. If candidates are bullsh!tting each other, the candidates should also be policing each other. He tells a lie or shades the truth; she counters with a straight statement of historical facts. If the opposing candidate doesn't know the point well enough to elucidate facts, that's on the opposing candidate - the moderators aren't there to be a backup set of notes on cue cards. The perception of Democratic-favouring bias is aggravated by past performances - Crowley's incorrect fact-check, Brazile's admission of passing questions beforehand. One of Trump's themes is that the establishment is out to get him. Whether intended or not, fair or not, this debate bolstered that theme.

Conversely, Harris has gotten about as far as she can with hype, sympathetic public relations, and presenting well. Adopting facial expressions of condescending amusement - or too much repetition of any other kind of unseriousness - typically isn't well-received by people not already sympathetic. Having seen some clips, I was reminded of Biden's repeated dismissive chuckling during his debate with Ryan. I suppose it plays well with some people, but not all. I doubt Harris can run out the remaining 8 weeks without having to explain some of her policy position reversals or be specific about how she would govern differently (break continuity with the Biden administration). Some of the questions were opportunities to do so, but she's still inclined to throw out a lot of vision and fluff. Her reluctance to face adversarial Q&A formats limits her opportunities to be more informative. The closer the election date gets, the fewer opportunities there are and the harder it's going to be to tell people a little bit at a time to mitigate whatever damage results. The theme all this relates to is "these people think they're smarter than you, and don't have to explain themselves".
 
It's plausible. Angry flustered off-topic lying Trump is something people have been seeing for over 8 years. He spent too much time digressing about the past even when he was trying to correct Harris when the moderators wouldn't step in (which is as it should have been for both candidates), but did manage to close with at least one key point: what was done during the prior administration?

He benefits from the perception that the moderators were actively on-side for Harris. A couple of interventions against Harris would have mitigated that, but there were none. Whatever angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin debates people want to have about the substance of "these things merited correction; nothing else did", the appearance is manifestly one-sided. Having read parts of the transcript, I'm struck by how often the moderators felt they needed to interject at length. That's not a role for moderators. If candidates are bullsh!tting each other, the candidates should also be policing each other. He tells a lie or shades the truth; she counters with a straight statement of historical facts. If the opposing candidate doesn't know the point well enough to elucidate facts, that's on the opposing candidate - the moderators aren't there to be a backup set of notes on cue cards. The perception of Democratic-favouring bias is aggravated by past performances - Crowley's incorrect fact-check, Brazile's admission of passing questions beforehand. One of Trump's themes is that the establishment is out to get him. Whether intended or not, fair or not, this debate bolstered that theme.

Conversely, Harris has gotten about as far as she can with hype, sympathetic public relations, and presenting well. Adopting facial expressions of condescending amusement - or too much repetition of any other kind of unseriousness - typically isn't well-received by people not already sympathetic. Having seen some clips, I was reminded of Biden's repeated dismissive chuckling during his debate with Ryan. I suppose it plays well with some people, but not all. I doubt Harris can run out the remaining 8 weeks without having to explain some of her policy position reversals or be specific about how she would govern differently (break continuity with the Biden administration). Some of the questions were opportunities to do so, but she's still inclined to throw out a lot of vision and fluff. Her reluctance to face adversarial Q&A formats limits her opportunities to be more informative. The closer the election date gets, the fewer opportunities there are and the harder it's going to be to tell people a little bit at a time to mitigate whatever damage results. The theme all this relates to is "these people think they're smarter than you, and don't have to explain themselves".

Luckily for Trump, he can now use this to his advantage in 'frothing up' his supporters...


Republicans have an answer for Trump’s poor debate performance​

The pile-on started before the debate was even over.

“You have two moderators there who acted as agents of the Harris campaign,” said David Bossie, a longtime Trump adviser and Republican National Committee member from Maryland.

“It was a little outrageous that they would fact-check only one candidate on the fly,” said Tim Murtaugh, who was the communications director for Trump’s 2020 campaign.

Trump had been setting the stage for weeks, arguing that the debate would be biased against him. Soon after the debate began, the complaints began rolling in — on social media, at watch parties across the nation — as if on cue: If anyone thought Trump was having a bad debate, it’s because of the media.

The posture from Trump’s backers on Tuesday stood in contrast to the June debate against President Joe Biden on CNN, which didn’t have any fact checking and left Trump saying he was treated “very fairly.”

 
Luckily for Trump, he can now use this to his advantage in 'frothing up' his supporters...
Republicans have been frothed up since Crowley's infamous intervention, to the point where they expect the host network to structure things to the advantage of the Democratic candidate. Consequently they are at least a bit surprised when the pendulum occasionally swings back a bit their way. For example, many expected ABC to find some way to get around the "muted mics". At one point it looked as if the mics would remain muted, but then ABC came through with a partial unmuting solution and Republicans were able to go back to frothing.
 
I just want to make sure we're clear, here.

The solution is for more moderator interjection against the Democratic candidate, not to provide fewer egregious lies?

Got it.
The solution is for no moderator injection. Let candidates correct each others' egregious lies. If a candidate is so uninformed as to be able to correct egregious lies, the candidate is unfit for office.
 
The solution is for no moderator injection. Let candidates correct each others' egregious lies. If a candidate is so uninformed as to be able to correct egregious lies, the candidate is unfit for office.
They couldn’t keep Trump within the allotted time when the mics were “muted”. Even then, he was allowed to interject after the rebuttal was done.

It would be a shouting match worthy of a Gr 2 classroom.
 
There are plenty of comparable leftist sites giving their own opposite opinion. This 'media bias' is not one sided. We've been over this before. It makes zero difference. That is why Ground News is good. It gives perspective from both sides and let's you compare left centre and right.
Just a five second search without much thought into,the question Who won the U.S. presidential debate? Trump says he did 'by a lot' You can ask your own questions and do your own research if you're interested in different opinion from all sides.

I said earlier that Trump and Harris were both shit. Neither can claim the high ground.

The only ones that are winners/losers are the voters.

Winners because they got to see them both at their worst. Losers because they will have to vote for them.
It's not just about the "bias" of Newsmax, it's who actually uses Newsmax. I just tried to check out their poll, and you have to sign-up to get the results.

Who actually gets their news from Newsmax? Trump supporters. Who would actually sign up to get those poll results? Trump supporters. So of course the Newmax poll is going to say Trump won.

The other major news outlets, both left leaning and right leaning, including Fox, didnt just leave a poll on their website for their actual adherents to sign up for, they reached out and tried as best they could to find a large swathe of people. Bias aside, those major news outlets are watched and visited by a much broader swathe of people than Newsmax, and this swath includes both Democrat and Republican supporters, and they are all saying the same thing; Harris won the debate.
 
A few points. Observation only.

Trump was fact checked on numerous occasions. Harris was fact checked zero times.
The disparity of questions. Harris got some softballs. Trump had hard questions Harris didn't.
Harris was devoid of detail. Talking in generalities, the policy page on her site is pretty well a cut and paste of bidens web site. Again, lacking any detail.
Trump gave a warmed of version of his rally speeches. His policies are there for the reading. They are the same policies he's been repeating at every whistle stop. People know what Trump stands for. Harris is still an enigma to most voters.
Focus groups of undecided voters made point that they still don't know what Harris stands for and were disappointed she didn't speak to the real problems they are facing. Many voiced that no matter the debate, things were better for them under Trump. Under the Harris term people are far less solvent because of her existing programs. Straw polls have shown a decent amount of undecideds have moved to Trump after the debate.
Harris hasn't explained her flip flops. Bernie Sanders has stated she remains the progressive she has been for years and right now is just doing what she needs to do to get elected.
Bernie Sanders has also stated that the middle working class is in dire straights. That can be laid directly at her feet.

Harris has admitted that Dana Walden, an executive at ABC/disney, and she are 'extraordinary friends.' A relationship that reaches back to 1994, and Walden has made donations to Harris' various campaigns of at least $20,000, since 2003. This has been brought up as a massive conflict of interest.

Everything here is open source from various sites. I'm just putting it all in one spot. There is much more if one wants to look. Agree or disagree is not any concern of mine.

My personal opinion is that this was a wash. Neither candidate is going to get much of a bump out of this, if any.
 
Regarding the next possible debate.

First, I like the format that has been established. CNN did a fantastic job, even considering their bias, surprising everyone. Questions and discussions to both candidates were fair and measured. They stuck to the rules. CNN took flak for not being harder on Trump, from its own supporters.

The ABC debate was everything CNNs wasn't.

If a third debate is scheduled, it should be Trump’s pick of who runs it and where it takes place. Twice, Trump has stuck his head in the lions mouth to placate the democrats. It should be his choice now.

If the dems are serious about a third debate, they should agree to this.
 
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