VAdm Norman - Supply Ship contract: Legal fight

[jollyjacktar]

For anyone to honestly believe that Irving could deliver cheaper than Davies, then they're seriously deluding themselves.  Irving is the grand master, and I mean MASTER, of lowballing the government before bait and switching up to the vastly more expensive reality of what they do deliver (time after time, just like Lucy and Charlie Brown and the football).  They have that shit down to a precise science that even Stephen Hawking would be challenged to follow the numbers and Machiavellian machinations. 

 

[Kirkhill]

For anyone to honestly believe that Irving could deliver cheaper than Davies, then they're seriously deluding themselves.  Irving is the grand master, and I mean MASTER, of lowballing the government before bait and switching up to the vastly more expensive reality of what they do deliver (time after time, just like Lucy and Charlie Brown and the football).  They have that shit down to a precise science that even Stephen Hawking would be challenged to follow the numbers and Machiavellian machinations.

This timeline thing can become quite addictive:

19 Oct 2011 Irving and Seaspan selected for NSPS
12 Jan 2012 Irving and Seaspan and the Government of Canada sign Agreements in Principle

30 Mar 2012 Government of Nova Scotia fronts Irving 300 MCAD to modernize its yards
3 Apr 2012 Seaspan awarded 5 more Coast Guard MEMTVs and 5 more Coast Guard OPVs
19 Oct 2012 Seaspan ground breaking on yard expansion - 170 MCAD of privately raised money
12 Dec 2012 Seaspan and Government of Canada sign Umbrella Agreement

7 Mar 2013 Irving gets 250 MCAD AOPS definition contract
18 Mar 2013 Seaspan get OFSV definition contract
June 2013 Berlin design selected for JSS
21 Aug 2013 Irving invests 300 MCAD in yard
10 Dec 2013 Irving announces the expenditure of 175 MCAD at yard

Time passes

27 Oct 2014 OFSV 01 First Steel Cut
6 Nov 2014 Seaspan ceremony for new yard

23 Jan 2015 Irving gets AOPS Build Contract
24 Jun 2015 Seaspan gets OFSV 01 Build Contract and has Keel Laying Ceremony
3 Sep 2015 First Steel cut on AOPS 01

Now, like I said before, a timeline is a sequence of discrete events that may or may not be connected.

But my sense of looking at that sequence is that Seaspan is the more aggressive, proactive group.  It raised its own money to build the yard and started work on its yard 9 months after signing the original Agreement in Principle.  The OFSV steel was cut 24 months later, 6 months before they got the Build Contract.

Meanwhile Irving doesn't cut steel for another 11 months, and only after it had been fronted 300 MCAD by the Government of Nova Scotia, and then has 250 MCAD of the Government of Canada's money in the bank did it start modernizing its yard, 10 months after Seaspan.

Now, Irving is probably the better company for its investors but Seaspan might be a better choice for its clients.

But that is just idle speculation on a snowy Sunday morning.

 

[NavyShooter]

I lambasted an Irving rep who's in their CSC project cell. 

Told him some real world, specific examples I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN that in my opinion count as deliberate sabotage that have come out of the Irving yard.

I dislike the pork-barrel politics that see billions dumped into Quebec (Bombardier) but in all honesty, I'd rather see the money for the shipbuilding contract go to Davie than Irving.

YMMV, but in my opinion, a dollar spent at Irving is 99 cents wasted.

NS

 

[jollyjacktar]

Damn skippy, saw that on FRE and MON, post FELEX.  Welding rods and 3 inch studs put into the sanitary lines to shut down the system and cause expensive repairs.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I lambasted an Irving rep who's in their CSC project cell. 

Told him some real world, specific examples I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN that in my opinion count as deliberate sabotage that have come out of the Irving yard.

I dislike the pork-barrel politics that see billions dumped into Quebec (Bombardier) but in all honesty, I'd rather see the money for the shipbuilding contract go to Davie than Irving.

YMMV, but in my opinion, a dollar spent at Irving is 99 cents wasted.

NS

There is actually a big difference between the Irving pork barrelling, which does go to the family in the Maritimes only, and the Bombardier one, which goes all over the place.

Yes, sure, Bombardier is headquartered in Quebec, but it has many divisions - which stand on their own - that are located all over the place in Canada and the world.

For instance, Quebec did bridge Bombardier's C-series with $C1.3 b., but in exchange, got a 49 % share of the company (the C-series has it's own separate incorporated company within Bombardier intn'l). The series is now gathering speed, and when it breaks even, Quebeckers will see a basically 50% return on their investment.

Meanwhile, the $C300 M. Canada loaned Bombardier went to Bombardier Aeronautical specifically for the development of the Global 7000 business jet. Guess where it is being developed and built? In Ontario, yep Ontario. Funny enough, that (Ontario) is where the Bombardier Aeronautical's most successful product also hails from: The Q-400 turbo-prop commuter plane.

Similarly, the Ontario light trains that are supposedly in such trouble are designed, built and managed in Ontario, by Ontario, mostly English-Canadian, managers and employees (in their discharge, however, most of the problems appear to come from shady work at the Mexican plant that need stop be corrected in Ontario). Very few, if any, Quebeckers in that plant. In fact, to put the plan back on track, they got the managers/engineers from the Quebec plant in La Pocatière to come up and straighten the mess.

And then, they have other plants in Western Canada, etc.

It is just that Bombardier, as a group, is like Canada's GM: Too big to let fail, and with tentacles in just about every province. So giving them money is not exactly like "Quebec" pork barreling as a lot of that money gets spent everywhere else in Canada.
 

 

[kratz]

There is actually a big difference between the Irving pork barrelling, which does go to the family in the Maritimes only, and the Bombardier one, which goes all over the place.

Yes, sure, Bombardier is headquartered in Quebec, but it has many divisions - which stand on their own - that are located all over the place in Canada and the world....[snip]

It is just that Bombardier, as a group, is like Canada's GM: Too big to let fail, and with tentacles in just about every province. So giving them money is not exactly like "Quebec" pork barreling as a lot of that money gets spent everywhere else in Canada.

Oldgateboatdriver,

Thank you for posting the background. Large companies are easy targets for discontent, but it helps when informed comparisons are used in discussions. 

 

[NavyShooter]

Damn skippy, saw that on FRE and MON, post FELEX.  Welding rods and 3 inch studs put into the sanitary lines to shut down the system and cause expensive repairs.

The welding rod in the black water line on MON (it was near the galley if I recall correctly...prevented the entire forward end blackwater from working) was a specific example I used.  That line was cut open, hammered full of welding rods, then welded shut again. 

Harpoon WIU cables cut.

PA system speakers cut, ripped out of speaker boxes. 

Willful, deliberate sabotage.  By individuals, employed at ISI. 

We strip the ships of all fire-fighting gear because they'll use/steal them.  The brass fittings around the ship must be removed as well, otherwise they'll get stolen too.  How many ships did we have the brass hose-ends cut off and stolen before we started completely stripping the ships out?  One is too many.

That place is a cesspool, and I am honestly looking forward to seeing the iAOR show up on time (or early) and actually WORK so that maybe ISI can get their heads out of their butts and live up to their potential.

As I said to the gent...(he had been offering me a job BTW)....I have too much pride in self to let my name be on a business card with the Irving logo on it after the $hit sandwiches they deliver from their yard to the RCN.

NS

 

[GK .Dundas]

The welding rod in the black water line on MON (it was near the galley if I recall correctly...prevented the entire forward end blackwater from working) was a specific example I used.  That line was cut open, hammered full of welding rods, then welded shut again. 

Harpoon WIU cables cut.

PA system speakers cut, ripped out of speaker boxes. 

Willful, deliberate sabotage.  By individuals, employed at ISI. 

We strip the ships of all fire-fighting gear because they'll use/steal them.  The brass fittings around the ship must be removed as well, otherwise they'll get stolen too.  How many ships did we have the brass hose-ends cut off and stolen before we started completely stripping the ships out?  One is too many.

That place is a cesspool, and I am honestly looking forward to seeing the iAOR show up on time (or early) and actually WORK so that maybe ISI can get their heads out of their butts and live up to their potential.

As I said to the gent...(he had been offering me a job BTW)....I have too much pride in self to let my name be on a business card with the Irving logo on it after the $hit sandwiches they deliver from their yard to the RCN.

NS

I have heard stories about that over the years about Irving and it's interesting perception of "Quality Control " .
To be fair I have also heard about Davie as well .During the early days of the City class deliveries .
What the hell is wrong with these people ? Don't they understand they could end up killing people in job lots ?

 

[Kirkhill]

I have heard stories about that over the years about Irving and it's interesting perception of "Quality Control " .
To be fair I have also heard about Davie as well .During the early days of the City class deliveries .
What the hell is wrong with these people ? Don't they understand they could end up killing people in job lots ?

Interesting question: Is it an abridgment of rights to ask an employee on a government defence contract if he or she has pacifist tendencies?  Or what their political views might be with respect to current affairs?

Edit: But we seem to be drifting from Admiral Norman's travails into NSPS discussions.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Interesting question: Is it an abridgment of rights to ask an employee on a government defence contract if he or she has pacifist tendencies?  Or what their political views might be with respect to current affairs?

Edit: But we seem to be drifting from Admiral Norman's travails into NSPS discussions.

Political leanings don't seem to matter at airports, why should it in shipyards?  :

 

[jollyjacktar]

The welding rod in the black water line on MON (it was near the galley if I recall correctly...prevented the entire forward end blackwater from working) was a specific example I used.  That line was cut open, hammered full of welding rods, then welded shut again. 
NS

It was the same place ours was, in the EBR adjacent to the mini laundry on 4 deck.  We had 4 studs there which caused a problem, had to cut out the section of pipe to get them out.  Those studs were long enough that they could not have got in there any other way, except by sabotage.  When you guys had the same issue, we said to cut into the line at that location and, ta da! you guys had the welding rods.

I also remember expanding spray foam in the Stbd Fwd scuppers in the hangar.  Liberally applied about 6 feet in.  That was a real pain in the ass to get out. :clubinhand:

Not all of the Irving guys are lousy workers, some, honestly do want to deliver a good product (my youngest is one of them).  Sadly, there are some there who have an axe to grind and take it out on the customer.  I think that if Irving didn't treat it's people like shit at times, they might not have the issues of shit employees.

I have heard stories about that over the years about Irving and it's interesting perception of "Quality Control " .
To be fair I have also heard about Davie as well .During the early days of the City class deliveries .
What the hell is wrong with these people ? Don't they understand they could end up killing people in job lots ?

Some of the QA disasters in the past have been self inflicted.  When we had some issues about 15 years ago on PRE, we looked into who was writing off on QA back in the mid-90's refit.  When the PO's and Chief saw the names, they said those particular guys were lazy fucks who would sign anything off and didn't give a shit about doing their jobs. 

As for the workers, why should they give a shit like we do?  They'll never sail on their products.  If they had some vested interest in what comes out, they might care, but as they don't...

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

"Some of the QA disasters in the past have been self inflicted.  When we had some issues about 15 years ago on PRE, we looked into who was writing off on QA back in the mid-90's refit.  When the PO's and Chief saw the names, they said those particular guys were lazy ****s who would sign anything off and didn't give a crap about doing their jobs.  "

So what has the leadership done to change regulations so that cannot happen again? 

 

[Kirkhill]

Two plugs in two ships of the same type in the same place suggests more than a QA problem.

In addition, if the work schedule as described in the NSPS thread is typical where does the RCN find the bodies to supervise/nursemaid all of those separate evolutions?  That simple cabling job would tie up a supervisor/project manager for a couple of weeks with ample opportunity for fun and games, especially if trying to oversee a few equally silly jobs.  Lots of downtime, set up time, clean up time, bodies coming and going.

 

[Loachman]

As for the workers, why should they give a shit like we do?  They'll never sail on their products.  If they had some vested interest in what comes out, they might care, but as they don't...

This is partly why I used to like taking techs on flights whenever I could - not that any of them ever gave me any real cause for concern.

 

[donaldk]

"Some of the QA disasters in the past have been self inflicted.  When we had some issues about 15 years ago on PRE, we looked into who was writing off on QA back in the mid-90's refit.  When the PO's and Chief saw the names, they said those particular guys were lazy ****s who would sign anything off and didn't give a crap about doing their jobs.  "

So what has the leadership done to change regulations so that cannot happen again?

Stand up of under-manned PMO dets (i.e. FELEX Det) and lack of post-ins to NDQARs seems to be the flavour of the day.  In terms of how NDQAR does audits, can't speak for what happened, however the inspection requirements quite often exceed the tech inspector's (TI) availability, postings/retirements for the military TIs (normally guys posted in are senior enough to pension out), and time is NEVER on your side.  As the 'XO' of NDQAR Marine, team motivation, keeping the internal admin horse-crap timely and dealt with, and workload balancing within the office goes a LONG way with my QARs doing better inspections out in the field (i.e. just because it's a CSE system doesn't mean the MAR TECH walking by should look away).  I also make a point of walking the job site when able and do take on odd jobs if required (e.g. just finished doing supply officer like work clearing out the warehouse leading the return of $10M+ unidentified serviceable stock properly back into CFSS). 

As for the 'policy of auditor conduct' (which I refer to as the DQA Quality Management System) is undergoing review and has been for a long time - however the reporting tools that it will call out and the express engagement of the client (TA/CA/PA spelled out in the contract) are already in play.

This is partly why I used to like taking techs on flights whenever I could - not that any of them ever gave me any real cause for concern.

If you did have a concern... that is when the AERE should be embarked on the flight also

Edit: Round 3 - had to get Loachman in.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Dumb question as I've never built anything as complicated as a ship....

For QA, does it not just make sense to have workers sign off on section production schedules that they completed the work on their designated  area and QA'd it prior to sealing it up?

I'm a little dumbfounded that there aren't incredibly tight QA controls on a military construction project that would allow such sabotage to get through.

Stuff like your talking about should have led to a public inquiry and a blackballing of the company.

 

[donaldk]

For QA, does it not just make sense to have workers sign off on section production schedules that they completed the work on their designated  area and QA'd it prior to sealing it up?

All depends what is spelled out (or CFTO routine called out) in the refit/DWP contract PMRS section, the hard part is when 'extras' (aka PWGSC-1379 forms) are involved - these often miss the inspection points and there are ALOT of them (anything added within 60 days of the docking is usually an 'extra').  Yards love 'extras' - the tax payer backed vote 5 budget not such much

 

[FSTO]

Latest news from Murray Brewster CBC

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/norman-leaks-investigation-1.4074493

No real info in this story, but I have a feeling that this has more to do with certain bureaucrats getting their poop in a knot over the circumnavigation of their cherished "process" by members of the government of the day.

My other question to people who are much more knowledgeable of procurement rules and regulations is this; are said rules and regulations set in stone and therefore are infallible and can never be changed? Or can bureaucrats admit the system is so broken that they need to toss out the entire thing and start from scratch? Is that even possible? 

 

[MilEME09]

Given that the Senate just came out and said our procurement system is the most broken thing on earth, and the government hasnt said anything to defend it, I would say the bureaucrats cherished system of ineffective buying to inflate a process beyond what it needs to be might be getting the microscope on it.

 

[ModlrMike]

In analyzing politics, one must always ask "who benefits most?" In this instance, it appears that had the Davie project been scuppered, Irving would likely have been the winners. In addition, the optics point to transferring a project from a Conservative riding to a Liberal one. In politics, appearance is everything.

I'm sensing that VAdm Norman, as CRCN at the time, was exasperated by the pure politicking on behalf of Irving, and what the outcome would have been for the Navy had the project been stalled.