Victimization of Veterans

[brihard]

What wild accusations? Is it in dispute that he murdered his girlfriend and lit the house on fire before killing himself? It does not appear to be. I don’t see guessing here. I’m not sure what other ‘accusations’, wild or not, are in play here. I’m not sure when it became wrong to level condemnation at murder, but if it has, then that’s a point we’ll have to disagree on.

A person who does this is no brother of mine. He was once. His choices changed that. There are many other things he could have done instead of what he did.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I took some time to let what I said percolate. 

For the record, I never once said PTSD isn't a serious illness or thay I do not have any empathy for those who suffer from it.  My OP was made after being generally pissed off that the media turned this man in to some sort of victim. 

The ex-soldier in question is a murderer and I'm pissed that they are using PTSD as an underlying cause for his actions is stupid.  PTSD doesn't make someone a murderer. 

So yah, I am condemning him for it and no he isn't my brother, he killed an innocent woman. 

There is nothing different from this man than from a guy like Basil Borutski.  Both are cowards.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

What wild accusations? Is it in dispute that he murdered his girlfriend and lit the house on fire before killing himself? It does not appear to be. I don’t see guessing here. I’m not sure what other ‘accusations’, wild or not, are in play here. I’m not sure when it became wrong to level condemnation at murder, but if it has, then that’s a point we’ll have to disagree on.

A person who does this is no brother of mine. He was once. His choices changed that. There are many other things he could have done instead of what he did.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I will not condemn or comment on any case like this where the information is from a newspaper. Wild accusations? Yelling to all to see that he's a cold blooded murderer? I'll grant, he did the deed. But I will not take your's or anyone else's word here that he's a murderer, until the coroner rules it so. Never mind your statistics, gut feelings, personal experience or your particular line of work. You have no authority to call him a murderer until everything is in and concluded. I mean, rules of evidence right? You, nor anyone hear knows exactly what happened. How about you just wait for the real professionals to deduce what the causes were. He did something horrendous, let's stay calm and figure it out., not run out and start building a scaffold. People can continue to repeat their 'wild accusations' until we really find out, from those that really know what they are talking about. But anyone rushing to judgement on this guy, doesn't have the facts. But if you say he's a murderer, and you sleep fine, don't let me impede on your sense of fair play. Don't let me turn your monster into just a sick and mentally unfit person, undeserving of any consideration.

Reading medical stats from a book and trying to fit them to a person is exactly, one of the reasons, why VAC is so fucked up. Because all stats do not fit all situations. Especially if you're talking mental health issues, but you appear cemented to yours as gospel. Meh, I can get my measure of people here and know when the discussion has passed a certain point of knowledge.

Reply if you wish. You and me are done with this. You're not changing and neither am I, but it was interesting getting your perspective.

Thanks.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I took some time to let what I said percolate. 

For the record, I never once said PTSD isn't a serious illness or thay I do not have any empathy for those who suffer from it.  My OP was made after being generally pissed off that the media turned this man in to some sort of victim. 

The ex-soldier in question is a murderer and I'm pissed that they are using PTSD as an underlying cause for his actions is stupid.  PTSD doesn't make someone a murderer. 

So yah, I am condemning him for it and no he isn't my brother, he killed an innocent woman. 

There is nothing different from this man than from a guy like Basil Borutski.  Both are cowards.

He didn't commit murder. Quit calling him a murderer Perry Mason. He committed a homicide. It will be murder if and when they prove he had the mental capacity to know that he was committing murder, intentional or not. So just knock that shit off. That's what I'm mad at. Not that he did the deed, but that all of you have already pigeon holed him with your unfounded allegations. You've never met him but call him a coward. You have no idea what he's done, previously, or what he's suffered.

It's 100% your fault for going off and condemning this guy on the say so of a fucking news article written by an journalist. You are free to judge now, with no facts other than a homicide/ suicide occurred as described by Jimmy Olsen. Or you can wait for ALL the facts. It may not change your mind, but at least it's a fair and knowledgeable judgement instead of tar and feathering on a whim.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself. Unless I think of something else, you guys can keep up with the hypothetical causes. Me, I'll wait for more input from a professional investigation.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

He didn't commit murder. Quit calling him a murderer Perry Mason. He committed a homicide. It will be murder if and when they prove he had the mental capacity to know that he was committing murder, intentional or not. So just knock that crap off. That's what I'm mad at. Not that he did the deed, but that all of you have already pigeon holed him with your unfounded allegations. You've never met him but call him a coward. You have no idea what he's done, previously, or what he's suffered.

It's 100% your fault for going off and condemning this guy on the say so of a ******* news article written by an journalist. You are free to judge now, with no facts other than a homicide/ suicide occurred as described by Jimmy Olsen. Or you can wait for ALL the facts. It may not change your mind, but at least it's a fair and knowledgeable judgement instead of tar and feathering on a whim.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself. Unless I think of something else, you guys can keep up with the hypothetical causes. Me, I'll wait for more input from a professional investigation.

Thanks for the discussion.

Murder is a synonym of homicide. 

Feel free to put me on ignore if you wish.  You'll never agree with what I have to say anyways and even if you did, you would never admit it 

 

[brihard]

It was the investigating police that said it was a homicide - suicide. Had it appeared to be a tragic accident they would have said so. That would be the professionals doing their work, I believe. Such things would not be stated without input from the coroner. I also did not say “cold blooded”. I in fact already pointed out that I wasn’t saying that elsewhere in the thread. Nor have I called anyone a monster. Best not to put words in my mouth when I’ve been exceedingly clear about what I am and am not saying.

Do I feel his mental health was a factor? Absolutely. I just see absolutely nothing saying a choice wasn’t made by him. That’s not statistical quibbling- that’s based on a damned firm understanding that PTSD doesn’t make people kill other people. If that were not the case, we would see PTSD immediately resulting in MELs to not have weapons, revocation of firearms licenses, discharge from police services, etc.

I am not cemented in anything- merely very convinced by a lot of evidence about what this disorder does and doesn’t do to people. I am open to having my mind changed if the evidence supports it. There are and have been enough people out there with PTSD that if loss of control to the point of murder were a symptom, it would be well documented. I invite anyone to provide evidence to the contrary.

Someone being not criminally responsible as a result of mental disorder is a defense that needs to be raised and proven. It is never presumed that a person is incapable of appreciating the nature and quality of their actions.

I am sure that everything around this and all of the circumstances were truly awful, and that this could have been avoided. I am not heartless and I’m not saying anyone else is or was either.

 

[brihard]

Murder is a synonym of homicide. 

Not precisely. Homicide is one person killing another. It includes justified killing, such as in self defense or defense of another, or in combat for that matter. Murder is homicide without legal justification.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Not precisely. Homicide is one person killing another. It includes justified killing, such as in self defense or defense of another, or in combat for that matter. Murder is homicide without legal justification.

Yes, but it is used synonymously in common speech by non-legal/law enforcement common folk, a group which I am part of. 

I'll end by saying I think you have made the most well reasoned argument in this entire thread Brihard.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Not precisely. Homicide is one person killing another. It includes justified killing, such as in self defense or defense of another, or in combat for that matter. Murder is homicide without legal justification.

Murder is a synonym of homicide. 

Feel free to put me on ignore if you wish.  You'll never agree with what I have to say anyways and even if you did, you would never admit it 

Thanks for finally admitting my point. You stopped short on what might be considered other circumstances though. Most importantly, mental capacity. I'll wait for a doctor's diagnoses for that from the Coroner's Investigation, they'll have access to all his med docs, and I will not wildly speculate on someone's condition. No matter what a journalist or someone diagnosing with a list of symptoms tells me. It may not have been PTSD at all, maybe he did do it on purpose. No one here knows, so no one should be making judgement on him, until they do. You guys always hammer me for facts, gotta have facts or it's bullshit. None of you have facts, other than what has been reported, if it was factual, and whatever supports your biases but you decided he was a murderer and crow it at every opportunity.

He's not a murderer until it's proven. Got that? So everyone can stop calling him that until it is proven. Whether PTSD had anything to do with it, will be determined later by professionals. And nobody here is qualified to judge. Nobody here knows the facts but you've all decided anyway, by trying to read into the story what fits your narrative from the news. I am not defending his actions, nor the reasons. If you're going to call someone a murderer, you better be damn sure he is, and right now you can't. You can guess and surmise, but it doesn't make anyone right.

Quit vilifying him until you know what you're talking about. There's a shattered family and community out there, don't make it worse for them with your crass, unproven theories and name calling.

Disagree with everything you say? Would never admit it? Short memory there HB. I said nothing of ignore, other than not being drawn into this. Something I failed at miserably and immediately but intend to correct right now. I don't care your feelings on the subject or motivation. The only judgement of yours bothering me is your calling him a murderer without cause.

What I do find odd is the ruckus and vindictiveness of this case. I don't recall similar when the last similar incident happened down east a few months back. Maybe my memory is going.

I'm sorry guys. Maybe I'm not being clear or maybe I'm missing something. All I'm asking for is some patience, without resorting to mayhem and to stop using such jarring and incorrect (at this point) monikers as "Murderer". I'll not defend one way or another at this point whether it was the PTSD or not. I don't have a clue, but it does deserve to be raised. As does every other possible known cause. Even if I had the facts, I'm not sure as a layman, whether I would be able to draw out the nuances of the words like a physician might.

"He's a murderer, and his PTSD defence (as forwarded by a journalist) is bullshit" (paraphrasing a general feeling here guys, not calling anyone out), is not the way to investigate nor is it truthful, until proven. Please remember that. If it turn's out that he is a cold blooded killer, I have no problem as long as we did our best to understand why it happened, without the baggage of preconceived stigmas.

Hopefully, I'm done now.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Murder is a synonym of homicide. 

Funny memory:

Sandhurst, Welsh Guards Colour Sergeant extremely annoyed at one OCdt who couldn't master saluting:

'Sir, if you do that again I could murder you but, because I am a professional, I will commit homicide.'  ;D

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I've nothing of value to add at this point, but I did just want to say, quickly, that this thread is, IMO, another good example of a discussion on the site where people kept their cool and colored inside the lines, despite some very different opinions, especially about a few sensitive subjects that touch many of the site members closely in different ways. 

BZ 

 

[Strike]

Sorry for the late jump back in.  It was a busy couple of days.

I certainly didn't want people to think that I was accusing everyone here of not reflecting on the MH situation of the subject in question without compassion.  It was very much directed at HB's comments.  Such as:

There is nothing different from this man than from a guy like Basil Borutski.  Both are cowards.

It's comments like that which negatively affect those who are dealing with serious issues of MDD, associated with whatever situation, be it PTSD, PDD or some other MH illness.  It shows a complete lack of understanding of severe MH issues and is why I made the reference of having to have been there to really understand what it means to have a MH issue and reach such depths.  I certainly didn't mean to poo-pooh your views on the subject at hand in the original article.

But thanks to all for the measured responses.

I'm certainly not saying that I see mental illness as an excuse to commit any crime, but it does need to be considered as an extenuating circumstance.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Sorry for the late jump back in.  It was a busy couple of days.

I certainly didn't want people to think that I was accusing everyone here of not reflecting on the MH situation of the subject in question without compassion.  It was very much directed at HB's comments.  Such as:

It's comments like that which negatively affect those who are dealing with serious issues of MDD, associated with whatever situation, be it PTSD, PDD or some other MH illness.  It shows a complete lack of understanding of severe MH issues and is why I made the reference of having to have been there to really understand what it means to have a MH issue and reach such depths.  I certainly didn't mean to poo-pooh your views on the subject at hand in the original article.

But thanks to all for the measured responses.

I'm certainly not saying that I see mental illness as an excuse to commit any crime, but it does need to be considered as an extenuating circumstance.

Well how is it any different?  A number of people seem to be focusing purely on the PTSD aspect of this case.  You seem to be taking my posts as an attack on you or an attack on people with PTSD when that's simply not the case. 

You also seem to mostly not acknowledge that a woman is dead.  You also choose to ignore the main reason I started this thread, to call out the narrative of "this man killed a woman because he was a poor traumatized veteran".  I vehemently disagree with this narrative and believe it actually does a disservice to people who do suffer from mental health issues.

Brihard said it, there is no correlation between PTSD and murdering killing someone, if there was we would see a heck of a lot more killings and from Police Officers, EMS workers, firefighters or basically anyone who has ever suffered any sort of traumatic event.

A man killing a woman in cold blood is about the lowest thing.  Sits right beside killing a child on my moral compass.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

One problem that sometimes occurs is that some people don't want help.  You can drive them to appointments, skip PT to sit in their closet with them, pay their bills, make excuses for their behaviour,  sit on the phone for hours with them but if they don't want to really get better they won't.  People invest time, money and sanity to help but the member doesn't want to help themselves. I don't know its due to some facet of their mental illness  but in some causes I think people do actually enjoy being a victim and the attention that comes with it.

Im sorry if that's insulting and in no way  shape or form am I accusing members here of that but I think we would be disingenuous to act like it doesn't happen.

I know we'll often say people fall through the cracks and say they didn't get the help they needed, and lean towards blaming the system (which in many causes IS at fault) but sometimes someone had access to a ton of help, a ton of  programs and peer support  but they don't take it.  And the slap in the face comes when they get in front of a camera or screen and start talking about how no one is helping them.

This right here.

I know it was suggested that then you pass to 'someone more qualified' but that's simply just justifying words.  Its a fact that some people, no matter what, will follow the destructive path iregardless of the help given, offered, or paid for.  Go down the list of celebrities who could have afforded 24/7 help, and were probably making enough money for someone else that they did, and yet still went off the tracks........

And RG, certainly not a slag, but 'professionals' are not the end all be all.  Within the last 2 weeks I have spent a couple of 12 hour shifts watching a remanded psych inmate and I'm still always shocked at how little attention anyone gets at these facilities.  There is seriously more human contact in seg at your average jail then what I've seen at  these facilities. 
Nothing can beat the plain good old 'humans who care' contact.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

This right here.

I know it was suggested that then you pass to 'someone more qualified' but that's simply just justifying words.  Its a fact that some people, no matter what, will follow the destructive path iregardless of the help given, offered, or paid for.  Go down the list of celebrities who could have afforded 24/7 help, and were probably making enough money for someone else that they did, and yet still went off the tracks........

And RG, certainly not a slag, but 'professionals' are not the end all be all.  Within the last 2 weeks I have spent a couple of 12 hour shifts watching a remanded psych inmate and I'm still always shocked at how little attention anyone gets at these facilities.  There is seriously more human contact in seg at your average jail then what I've seen at  these facilities. 
Nothing can beat the plain good old 'humans who care' contact.

:nod: And all the schooling in the world won't help someone develop interpersonal skills.

 

[mariomike]

And all the schooling in the world won't help someone develop interpersonal skills.

Personality. If you don't have it, you might as well quit.

Brihard said it, there is no correlation between PTSD and murdering killing someone, if there was we would see a heck of a lot more killings and from Police Officers, EMS workers, firefighters or basically anyone who has ever suffered any sort of traumatic event.

Maybe people are more resilient than some would think?

eg: In the wake of the terrorist attacks at the World Trade Center, more than 9,000 counselors went to New York City to offer aid to rescue workers, families, and direct victims of the violence of September 11, 2001.

"Although psychological debriefing is widely used throughout the world to prevent PTSD, there is no convincing evidence that it does so. Some evidence suggests that it may impede natural recovery."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26151755

 

[TCM621]

A man killing a woman in cold blood is about the lowest thing.  Sits right beside killing a child on my moral compass.

I know people keep homing in on your word choice but words have meanings and with those mean vs come connotation. I doubt very much this killing was done in cold blood, very few killings are. To kill in cold blood means to kill without remorse or emotion. People who kill in cold blood rarely commit suicide.

Homicide-suicides are committed by people with diagnosed mental health issues <60% of the time. It is reasonable to assume a significant portion of the remainder had undiagnosed MH issues. There is also the issue on TBIs and while the data is sparse, evidence is growing linking TBIs and violent behaviour such as this.
Edit:
It was pointed out to me that I didn't provide a reference for the percentage of peony with MH issues. Here is my source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4889623/

It is only one study but it gave me an overall number whereas most of the others were focused on a single issue such as depression.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

This right here.

I know it was suggested that then you pass to 'someone more qualified' but that's simply just justifying words.  Its a fact that some people, no matter what, will follow the destructive path iregardless of the help given, offered, or paid for.  Go down the list of celebrities who could have afforded 24/7 help, and were probably making enough money for someone else that they did, and yet still went off the tracks........

And RG, certainly not a slag, but 'professionals' are not the end all be all.  Within the last 2 weeks I have spent a couple of 12 hour shifts watching a remanded psych inmate and I'm still always shocked at how little attention anyone gets at these facilities.  There is seriously more human contact in seg at your average jail then what I've seen at  these facilities. 
Nothing can beat the plain good old 'humans who care' contact.

No problem Bruce! Please don't take this as a slag either. So your suggesting forget the professionals and just hug the inmate? I don't ever recall saying that 'professionals' are the end all to be all. Humans who care? Lock em up when you go home from shift.  :rofl:

I've had a bunch of the courses also for people like this. I am not an expert, but I will tell you, that if you have someone like this, you will have an exceedingly rough time keeping up, mentally and physically. Your inmates don't call you at home, or drop by and you aren't going to come in, even for OT, to sit in his cell and listen for the hundredth time about the same incident. These people do. If you don't pass them off, you will become a casualty yourself.


I'm not interested in talking about inmates that can be locked down when you're tired of listening. Our charges walk the street, come to your house, share meals and some want to make you their 24 hr/day listening post. And these people are not criminals, living in jail exasperating the condition. The only crime they have committed is that they are sick

The layman is not equipped for that, even with all the neat training we can get. Perhaps we should lock them all up, go with your method and get some voluntary 'huggers' from the university to sit with them.

Cheers.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Well how is it any different?  A number of people seem to be focusing purely on the PTSD aspect of this case.  You seem to be taking my posts as an attack on you or an attack on people with PTSD when that's simply not the case. 

You also seem to mostly not acknowledge that a woman is dead.  You also choose to ignore the main reason I started this thread, to call out the narrative of "this man killed a woman because he was a poor traumatized veteran".  I vehemently disagree with this narrative and believe it actually does a disservice to people who do suffer from mental health issues.

Brihard said it, there is no correlation between PTSD and murdering killing someone, if there was we would see a heck of a lot more killings and from Police Officers, EMS workers, firefighters or basically anyone who has ever suffered any sort of traumatic event.

A man killing a woman in cold blood is about the lowest thing.  Sits right beside killing a child on my moral compass.

I have used the term PTSD in this discussion. I've also used the term, 'mental illness a number of times. I am not talking exclusive to PTSD. I am not a Dr, nor a clinical psychologist. I've done reading on both conditions, some I understand, some I don't. The discussion originally focused on one person and PTSD. It has morphed. Nothing to be done about that. I don't typically believe much on the internet unless it can be placed, by me, as real. I've seen all kinds of professional lists posted on the internet that have no backing at all. No correlation between PTSD and homicide/ suicide. Hmmm, Brihard does some good research and I'm not saying his info is wrong, which seems a crux of what you are both saying, to me, but I would need a little more professional and peer reviewed research (and likely a shrink willing to explain it all) before I made a definitive statement like that. I also won't class murder based on the sex or age of the victim or killer. All loss of human life, by taking it, is equally reprehensible. If the Coroner's investigation finds no correlation, I am absolutely fine with that. Maybe it was his meds that did it.

I'm simply saying, until the proof is all in, properly investigated by the right people, "a homicide/suicide occurred that may, or may not have had to do with PTSD or other mental illness or.... or......" Not "an ex soldier murdered his girlfriend an killed himself because he had PTSD, but I don't believe it because I read PTSD won't do that to you, he's just a murderer."

Is it possible to see the difference? I think it is.

If that doesn't make sense to you, I can't do anything about that.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

RG....actually when I'm at the hospital with one he's a 'patient'*.......and I can, 100% without a moments hesitation, state that every single shift he/she [done some Vanier ones] got more personal interaction from myself an my partner then from ANYONE on shift at the hospital that day or night.
And yes, they do call back to work sometimes.......though I will admit they don't come to my house. ;D

All I was stating is 'professionals' aren't always that.......IMO of course.

* EDIT: and where I work now they are called 'residents'.  Not everyplace is a DC.