Victoria is facing a public-safety crisis

[RedFive]

In BC, two major asylums were closed, Riverview in Coquitlam and Tranquille in Kamloops. Their residents referred to "care in the community".

I can, in just my one little patrol zone, think of at least 5 individuals who require commitment to a similar facility, with little chance of ever being able to leave once stabilized. Care in the community is a great idea, but it can not and should not be a blanket policy. Mental health is a continuum, the treatments of the same should be similar.

But that would be more money than most people could stomach, even though our current system costs an astounding amount of money. Nobody is willing to see that the expenditure in that department will save exponentially in others, such as Law Enforcement.

Also, people don't like the idea of locking up the mentally ill, but in certain cases that is what is required. The alternative is rampant drug use and petty crime to pay for said drugs. I will clarify I'm not saying throw all the homeless, drug addicted or mentally ill in to an asylum, but a good number would benefit from a short to medium stay in such a facility. Some should never leave.

My solution? Long term care mental health facilities, and the ability of a Judge to sentence people there indefinitely, until released by a competent medical authority.

 

[OldSolduer]

In BC, two major asylums were closed, Riverview in Coquitlam and Tranquille in Kamloops. Their residents referred to "care in the community".

I can, in just my one little patrol zone, think of at least 5 individuals who require commitment to a similar facility, with little chance of ever being able to leave once stabilized. Care in the community is a great idea, but it can not and should not be a blanket policy. Mental health is a continuum, the treatments of the same should be similar.

But that would be more money than most people could stomach, even though our current system costs an astounding amount of money. Nobody is willing to see that the expenditure in that department will save exponentially in others, such as Law Enforcement.

Also, people don't like the idea of locking up the mentally ill, but in certain cases that is what is required. The alternative is rampant drug use and petty crime to pay for said drugs. I will clarify I'm not saying throw all the homeless, drug addicted or mentally ill in to an asylum, but a good number would benefit from a short to medium stay in such a facility. Some should never leave.

My solution? Long term care mental health facilities, and the ability of a Judge to sentence people there indefinitely, until released by a competent medical authority.

I work in a provincial facility and the amount of mental health inmates is rising quite rapidly.

As for your last line it was that way in Manitoba when I started in 1999 - we had inmates here "at the pleasure of Her Majesty the Queen" in other words indefinitely.

 

[lenaitch]

The deinstitutionalization into the community without adequate community supports has been playing out across the country. In reality, the Ministry of Health (or whoever managed MH institutions in the various provinces) unloaded its problem onto a bunch of other ministries, government departments and municipalities under the guise of greater humanity. In reality, for many, it is less humane.

At one posting, the nearest MH facility was about 5 hours away. Since a committal warrant escort was a road trip to the big city, we often stayed overnight. We we'd get home the next day, the patient had beaten us back; the institution admitted them, assessed them and discharged them with a bus ticket.

I have no no answers, but I know that re-establishing big provincial institutions isn't going to happen in my lifetime. It will be interesting how well the new 'crisis intervention' teams pan out. In Ontario, a non-cop, non-MD 'crisis worker' has no authority to compel non-voluntary outcomes and, in some cases, that's what is ultimately needed after all the calm-talking has failed.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The deinstitutionalization into the community without adequate community supports has been playing out across the country.

This is way beyond 'those poor crazy people without help'. It's a crime pandemic that matches the health version, and alot of it is driven by serial criminals who have migrated here from across Canada at the unwitting invitation of Victoria City Council:

Victoria now among most dangerous cities in Canada​

Once-placid Victoria sees fourth-highest spike in crime severity index, bucking a trend that saw reported crimes plunge nearly 10 per cent from a year earlier across Canada

Victoria, characterized for decades as a placid and safe city, posted the fourth-highest increase in severe crime across Canada in 2020, bucking a national trend that saw crimes reported to police drop 9.8 per cent from a year earlier.

Statistics Canada released data July 27 showing a crime severity index in the city of Victoria of 168 — significantly higher than the 76 seen in the region as a whole. Victoria’s crime severity index also tops that of Vancouver (105) and the B.C. average (96).

Victoria ranked the fourth-highest in the crime severity index (CSI) among cities profiled, with a 3 per cent year-over-year increase in 2020. The CSI had fallen in 27 of 35 urban centres profiled, according to Statistics Canada data.

Victoria now among most dangerous cities in Canada

Once-placid Victoria sees fourth-highest spike in crime severity index, bucking a trend that saw reported crimes plunge nearly 10 per cent from a year earlier across Canada

www.westerninvestor.com

 

[OldSolduer]

I've seen MH guys sold down the river and get longer sentences the "normal" ones don't get. Its very unfair where a 25 year old inmate has the cognitive ability of a five year old but his "lawyer" got him seven years. Good job Mr Attorney at Law.

BUT you cut someones head off on a bus you get kid glove treatment.

 

[RedFive]

I've seen MH guys sold down the river and get longer sentences the "normal" ones don't get. Its very unfair where a 25 year old inmate has the cognitive ability of a five year old but his "lawyer" got him seven years. Good job Mr Attorney at Law.

BUT you cut someones head off on a bus you get kid glove treatment.

Ideally there would be a severe reduction in the number of mental health cases in prison, because they wouldn't be out committing crimes to fund themselves. They would either be intermittently, or permanently confined to the institution for rehabilitation or, in the worst of cases, a comfortable if confined life protected from harming themselves and kept away from the public.

But I don't run the country, so that's not gonna happen.

 

[Good2Golf]

BUT you cut someones head off on a bus you get kid glove treatment.

And a name change and a court order prohibiting use of your old head chopping, face eating name…

 

[Navy_Pete]

I remember when Hamilton shut down most of it's MH hospital for it's day patients. There were a few people in the immediate community that we'd regularly run into at Timmies etc who obviously had some issues but were relatively functional. Within a month or so those folks had all fallen apart, and I know at least one of them ended up homeless and turned into that crazy guy that was wandering down the street yelling at shadows until they ended up being committed.

Didn't make sense to me then, and still doesn't now, but can't believe the financial/human cost for only intervening when folks are completely fallen apart is less than helping people out at the start. Seems far better to fund mental health support and provide some social assistance for folks like that living on the margins so they can have some kind of life instead of letting them fall apart and hoping that they don't take other people down with them.

 

[daftandbarmy]

And this is what it looks like when you blend drugged out cyclists with traffic, a couple of pandemics and a great investment in bike lanes. Most of the people in the bike lanes during the work day are stoned out street people commuting around town for whatever reason:

Of course, 911 winds up taking the heat in this case...

GOOD SAMARITAN STUCK ON HOLD WITH 911 AFTER WOMAN STRUCK BY CAR IN VICTORIA​

When a woman on bike was struck by a vehicle in front of Budget Brake and Muffler in downtown Victoria on Thursday morning, staff at the shop jumped into action.

"We were quick on scene and called 911," said Ryan Burghardt, owner of Budget Brake and Muffler.

The problem was, nobody answered.

"Eleven minutes on hold to get through to the ambulance," Burghardt told CTV News.

When someone calls 911, that call is answered by E-Comm. If an ambulance is needed, the call taker will stay on the line and put you through to BC Emergency Health Services (BCEHS).

CFAX 1070 | Victoria’s news & information station - iHeartRadio

Listen to CFAX 1070, your go-to station for Victoria's Breaking News & Talk that Matters. Catch up on weather, podcasts, contests, & upcoming local events now!

www.iheartradio.ca

 

[mariomike]

And a name change and a court order prohibiting use of your old head chopping, face eating name…

"Everybody needs a fresh start once in a while." < sarcasm emoji.

 

[CBH99]

And this is what it looks like when you blend drugged out cyclists with traffic, a couple of pandemics and a great investment in bike lanes. Most of the people in the bike lanes during the work day are stoned out street people commuting around town for whatever reason:

Of course, 911 winds up taking the heat in this case...

GOOD SAMARITAN STUCK ON HOLD WITH 911 AFTER WOMAN STRUCK BY CAR IN VICTORIA​

When a woman on bike was struck by a vehicle in front of Budget Brake and Muffler in downtown Victoria on Thursday morning, staff at the shop jumped into action.

"We were quick on scene and called 911," said Ryan Burghardt, owner of Budget Brake and Muffler.

The problem was, nobody answered.

"Eleven minutes on hold to get through to the ambulance," Burghardt told CTV News.

When someone calls 911, that call is answered by E-Comm. If an ambulance is needed, the call taker will stay on the line and put you through to BC Emergency Health Services (BCEHS).

CFAX 1070 | Victoria’s news & information station - iHeartRadio

Listen to CFAX 1070, your go-to station for Victoria's Breaking News & Talk that Matters. Catch up on weather, podcasts, contests, & upcoming local events now!

www.iheartradio.ca

Good thing it was JUST someone being hit by a car…

Imagine someone is breaking into your house while your little kids are in their beds?


E-Comm better up it’s game. That’s pathetic to the point it should be criminal.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Good thing it was JUST someone being hit by a car…

Imagine someone is breaking into your house while your little kids are in their beds?


E-Comm better up it’s game. That’s pathetic to the point it should be criminal.

I guess $13M doesn't buy what it used to

Greater Victoria’s new $13 million E-Comm 9-1-1 call centre up and running​

Saanich located building handles 911 calls to 15 police agencies

The new $13 million South Island 911/Police Dispatch Centre held a grand opening in Saanich on Wednesday.
The earthquake proof CRD building has a generator and is designed to act as a post-disaster centre.

Greater Victoria’s new $13 million E-Comm 9-1-1 call centre up and running

Saanich located building handles 911 calls to 15 police agencies

www.vicnews.com

 

[mariomike]

"Eleven minutes on hold to get through to the ambulance," Burghardt told CTV News.

Without knowing the details, how many others called it in at the same time?

When did paramedics arrive after the first call was received?

After the 9-1-1 system was introduced in Metro Toronto in 1982, and later when cell phones became popular, I heard plenty of stories from our Call Receivers about their lines getting jammed by "Good Samaritans" calling in about the same incident.

Not to suggest that is what happened with Mr. Burghardt. But, the thought did cross my mind.

• Answer all incoming 9-1-1 calls within three rings or 10 seconds, 90 per cent of the time

 

[RedFive]

E-Comm is just the initial "911, what's your emergency" call centre. Ask for Fire or Ambulance? They route your call appropriately. BC Ambulance Service has their own dispatch centres where qualified paramedics take the phone calls and provide treatment advice as the Ambulance is en route. E-Comm only does dispatching for Police. I'm privileged enough to be in a jurisdiction that has it's own radio room, because from what I've heard it can be painful to have E-Comm as your dispatch centre.

BCAS has been in crisis for years due to mismanagement and poor funding, but the final stroke has been the Covid pandemic, and the thing to bring it to the public's eye was the heat wave this summer where Police and Fire started taking medical calls for service and in some cases transporting for BCAS.

 

[mariomike]

BCAS has been in crisis for years due to mismanagement and poor funding,

I remember when the Province of British Columbia took it over in 1974, because someone I knew from the job was hired to go out there and manage it.

The province ( in Ontario, anyway ) only provides 50% of the funding required to operate at the target response time to life-threatening emergency calls within 12 minutes 90% of the time. Within city limits.

If a city takes paramedic response times seriously, they have to run it them selves - not the province.
And local taxpayers have to ante up the additional 50%.

Even then, the funding is based upon the census population of a city. Not its business day population.
As a result, there are always more people requiring paramedic services than the system is funded for.

RedFive said:

BC Ambulance Service has their own dispatch centres where qualified paramedics take the phone calls and provide treatment advice as the Ambulance is en route.

It used to be the highlighted way when I hired on. But, that ended decades ago.

The Call Receivers and Emergency Medical Dispatchers they have now are not paramedics. They belong to a different union.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I remember when the Province of British Columbia took it over in 1974, because someone I knew from the job was hired to go out there and manage it.

The province ( in Ontario, anyway ) only provides 50% of the funding required to operate at a target response time to life-threatening emergency calls within 12 minutes 90% of the time. Within city limits.

If a city takes paramedic response times seriously, they have to run it them selves - not the province.
And local taxpayers have to ante up the additional 50%.

Even then, the funding is based upon the census population of a city. Not its business day population.
As a result, there are always more people requiring paramedic services than the system is funded for.

RedFive said:

It used to be the highlighted way when I hired on. But, that ended decades ago.

The Call Receivers and Emergency Medical Dispatchers they have now are not paramedics. They belong to a different union.

Somewhat related note, the fire code is designed around a 10 minute response time. Which doesn't really make sense for a rural house, and also doesn't make sense for all these stupid subdivisions with their rats maze of streets and small roundabouts on single lane streets that ambulances/fire trucks have to go over. But there isn't anything to require additional fire proofing if you aren't within that response window. (Doesn't take very much though; a sheet of normal drywall properly installed gives you another 5-10 minutes pretty easily, and the fire rated drywall can have 30 and 60 minute ratings. Also some pretty cool fire resistant insulations you can install that are also pretty good against mold/mildew)

Additionally, multiple studies show that the new engineered wood trusses fail within about 7 minutes of exposure to fire (vs closer to 15 for standard 2x10s) so not uncommon for ground floors with an exposed basement side to collapse even in the best case scenarios for fire response times, and there are whole cities in the US where FFs won't go into newer houses through the ground floor if they know it's clear of people.

So make sure you can get out your window I guess.

 

[mariomike]

Navy_Pete said,

Somewhat related note, the fire code is designed around a 10 minute response time.

I guess taxpayers - like ourselves - get what we pay for. Not much the crews can do about it, other than get out of the station ASAP.

Our chute time expectation was 60 seconds between 0700 - 2000 hrs, and 90 seconds between 2000 and 0700.
I was on the bus, so it was a little less stringent.

I looked at the Victoria B.C. Fire Department website. But, saw no mention of response times.

Fire Department | City of Victoria

www.victoria.ca

 

[lenaitch]

Somewhat related note, the fire code is designed around a 10 minute response time. Which doesn't really make sense for a rural house, and also doesn't make sense for all these stupid subdivisions with their rats maze of streets and small roundabouts on single lane streets that ambulances/fire trucks have to go over. But there isn't anything to require additional fire proofing if you aren't within that response window. (Doesn't take very much though; a sheet of normal drywall properly installed gives you another 5-10 minutes pretty easily, and the fire rated drywall can have 30 and 60 minute ratings. Also some pretty cool fire resistant insulations you can install that are also pretty good against mold/mildew)

Additionally, multiple studies show that the new engineered wood trusses fail within about 7 minutes of exposure to fire (vs closer to 15 for standard 2x10s) so not uncommon for ground floors with an exposed basement side to collapse even in the best case scenarios for fire response times, and there are whole cities in the US where FFs won't go into newer houses through the ground floor if they know it's clear of people.

So make sure you can get out your window I guess.

Yup, and how is a fire crew to know how the house is constructed; engineered joists have been around for about 50 years, more common as years progress. A neighbour is a city FF and they will no longer enter a house solely to save property. We had a very new house burn down on our road a couple of years ago (FF welding in garage - oops). Everybody got out and the neighbours were up in arms that the fire crew (volunteer rural dept) fought it defensively. Why risk a live to save insured property. Typically, in rural settings, any 10, 15, etc. window is lost.

 

[mariomike]

What do you guys think some solutions could be to Victoria’s problem? (Open question, don’t worry about being PC)

I wouldn't know.

But, the situation described on here reminds me of a movie we went to at a drive-in a long time ago.

 

[Haggis]

Fair enough, and solid points.

In the context of reversing the trend in Victoria, as per some of the issues mentioned both in the article and upthread, I was/am trying to brainstorm some easy to implement solutions that could help start the momentum.

You have respectable law enforcement experience, and your posts are always reasonable.


I’d be curious to hear some thoughts or ideas of yours, if Victoria city council approached you and said “Haggis, what do we do to fix this?”

Sorry, this post of yours got away on me. Lots of OT this week and a double shift yesterday.

I don't have a solution and I don't know what Victoria or BC have tried before. Perhaps it's time to revisit and maybe revive those programs that have worked in the past, stood the test of jurisprudence but were sacrificed on the PC altar to appease social justice warriors. Overlay a good, solid, well thought out and defensible comms strategy to educate the public through implementation and continuation to steady state. It must also be acknowledged that this is not Victoria's problem alone to fix. Some of those problems lie at the feet of the provincial and federal governments to address on Victoria's behalf.