My situation is that I have diploma and went ncm but my father paid for my education and is now greatly disappointed as long with other family members, I am likening my time in the CAF and talked to my father and he would give me a chance if I went officer my plan is to write a memo stating my intentions to come DEO in order for to appeal to my family this is the right career choice and mend the situation my father was born and raised Mennonite. I was oringinally told I could transfer to officer after 3 years now I'm being told it may be up to 5. My instructors at basic told me to do this to help and now I don't know what's going on from the recruiting centre to basic I was given false information. I'm loving my time in the CAF and want this career I know I now I should've gone DEO. I would reapply the moment my 1 year non reapply was up.
- Reaction score
- 1,601
- Points
- 1,260
Pegula37 said:
Transfer from NCM to Officer
https://army.ca/forums/threads/123732.0
NCM -> Officer
https://army.ca/forums/threads/87590.0
NCM to Officer process
https://army.ca/forums/threads/45209.0
etc...
Pegula37 said:
You may, or may not, find this of interest,
How to get family on board
https://army.ca/forums/threads/13678.0
20 pages.
Pegula37 said:
If religion is an issue, perhaps that is something you may wish to discuss with a CAF Chaplain?
Although, if I understand your posts correctly, your father is ok with you serving in the CAF - if you are an officer?
Pegula37 said:
Pegula37 said:
The advice you received from a CAF Recruiter,
DAA said:
If you don't mind me asking, did you discuss this with your father before joining?
Pegula37 said:
You may wish to read this,
Getting Back In/Re-enrolling Mega Thread
https://army.ca/forums/threads/294.475
37 pages.
Another applicant at a crossroad
OP: Pegula37
https://milnet.ca/forums/threads/119335/post-1366503.html#msg1366503
Pegula37 said:
My father seemed to have believed I applied through DEO even though I told him I wanted to do ncm route to decided if it was the career I wanted before signing the larger 9-14 year contracts we barely spoke during my final year at university he was already upset, my father seems to be warm to the idea of officer after he paid for my full education and board thinking I wasted it now, even though I told him I would transfer to officer whenever I could because I'm not going to waste that education and want a solid career with it. The recruiting centre told me it would take 3 years to be able to transfer now at basic they tell me it's 5 and recommended I go to my new unit and hand in paperwork for VR because it's longer at basic and would cause to many complications for me but told me to finish the BMQ. I will definitely talk to the padre because religion is an issue I will not discuss here. The recruiter told me 3 years only so it was a good idea to see if I would enjoy this career.
- Reaction score
- 13
- Points
- 530
Pegula37 said:
It’s easy for others to have/form opinions about situations based on their own experiences, biases and prejudices and even ignorance. I, for example, have always been fiercely independent and couldn’t care less about what my parent(s) thought I should do with my life while I was growing up. So it’s easy for me to say you should do what makes you happy, regardless of what your father/family think/feel is best for you. If him paying for your education had specific caveats attached, then I’d set up a reasonable repayment plan and say, ‘Well Dad, thanks but no thanks.’ But that’s me.
Clearly your father doesn’t have an informed opinion about the career one can have as an NCM. Because let me tell you, there are some extremely successful NCMs out there who have had very distinguished careers and who are well-respected by other NCMs and Officers alike. There are also Officers who haven’t done much to brag about. That, of course, goes both ways. My point, though, is that your father shouldn’t be thinking that you being an NCM is somehow substandard/inferior, nor should he be thinking that being an Officer is the only way to be successful in the military...Nor should you, for that matter.
I’m puzzled though...I’m extremely familiar with the Mennonite religion and don’t see how it makes one iota of difference in terms of what one chooses to do in the military. You don’t have to explain...like I said, it just doesn’t make sense to me.
Anyhow, personally speaking, my opinion is that you’re in. Period. VRing, regardless of the reasoning, is not beneficial at this stage. All you’re doing is setting yourself back. I would advise against it, and do what you have to do to try and transfers, but just don’t VR. But that’s just me.
Eye In The Sky
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 3,781
- Points
- 1,160
Pegula37 said:
I'm not the decision-maker on what constitutes compassionate reasons, but "dad isn't happy" might not meet the threshold. Just my opinion.
You are already in, and you are complete BMQ so...as I posted above, normally you will be required to serve the 3 years. The CAF doesn't really care if you want to go DEO to appeal to your family, remember you voluntarily joined and signed the dotted line. Right?
You can apply for one of the various "NCM to Officer" competitions that the CAF currently has, whether it is in 3 or 5 years isn't relevant to "I am done BMQ and want to release but not wait 3 years", which is the real point here isn't it? It is competitive and you'd have to meet all the pre-requisites, like CFAT, medical, etc...it isn't just about having a degree.
If you have a diploma, how do you intend to go DEO..that would require a degree. Or was that a mistake and/or English isn't you first official language (just wanting to make sure you understand DEO is for candidates who already hold a degree that is applic/accepted for their desired officer classificiation/trade".
Pegula37 said:
There is a lot of subjective "he said/she said" stuff in your post. We've no way to know if the recruiter said X and the CLFRS staff said Y, etc. Maybe you didn't understand correctly.
Did the recruiter tell you that your expected minimum service would be 3 years as an NCM?
Myself and others on here have seen instances before where someone has joined up, it wasn't quite like they thought, they have the doubts on whether it is for them and wanted to VR during/after basic, etc. Your situation isn't new or particularly unique.
If you want to VR, the thing you can do is write your memo and wait for the decision. That's it, really. I've posted the relevant policy above. Normally 3 years until you can release after you've completed BMQ.
ballz
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 444
- Points
- 910
Pegula... What was your enrollment date?
For anyone else that may know... the whole "you have to wait one year after your VR to reapply," deal... does that apply if someone completes their TOS? I know not renewing your TOS is processed as a VR (release category would be 4B), but it's not entirely the same as VRing before your TOS is complete (release item would be 4C). You may see where I am going with this... if the member can avoid the one-year wait period, it's probably in his best interest to just finish the 3-year TOS and then apply for DEO right away.
By the time a VR is approved, and goes through, plus the one year wait period.... the member would probably be almost done his original TOS anyway...
For anyone else that may know... the whole "you have to wait one year after your VR to reapply," deal... does that apply if someone completes their TOS? I know not renewing your TOS is processed as a VR (release category would be 4B), but it's not entirely the same as VRing before your TOS is complete (release item would be 4C). You may see where I am going with this... if the member can avoid the one-year wait period, it's probably in his best interest to just finish the 3-year TOS and then apply for DEO right away.
By the time a VR is approved, and goes through, plus the one year wait period.... the member would probably be almost done his original TOS anyway...
I do have degree sorry I miss wrote that, I am going to talk to the padre to help me make a decision. I know I signed the line and my contract was 3 years infantry signed end of June this year. It's more then just dad isn't happy I didn't want to write much online and won't. I just Will probably write a memo and see what happens, though not expecting the best. From the recruiting centre to CFLRS have all fed me lies and I just wanted clarity.
- Reaction score
- 1,601
- Points
- 1,260
ballz said:
This may, or may not be relevant, FWIW,
From DAA ( a CAF Recruiter ),
DAA said:
See also,
Obligatory Service and Release
https://army.ca/forums/threads/105193.25
2 pages.
Compassionate release
https://army.ca/forums/threads/79897.0
Compassionate Release
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+compassioante+relaease&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=k4LiWYmvOcje8AeB-olQ&gws_rd=ssl
As always, the CAF is your most trusted source of official information.
Eye In The Sky
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 3,781
- Points
- 1,160
I don't think I agree with this part; it seems very subjective. Let's say a NCM had managed to get their degree while serving their VIE and then determined their chances were better to be selected for say, Log O or AEC if they released and applied DEO (lots of people know how to find and interpret the SIP, right?). So they didn't sign their CE/IE25 offer, after serving with no blemishes.
Should that person really be penalized for just letting their TOS expire because they knew they had a better chance DEO and SCP or something?
ballz
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 444
- Points
- 910
Pegula37 said:
Yes, but what was the actual date of enrolment (the date you swore-in). Did you sign the TOS and swear-in on the same day? Did you fly to basic training right away?
What I am trying to figure out here.. by the looks of it... it's going to take almost as long for you to VR and then re-apply DEO, than it is to just finish your TOS and re-apply through the DEO. It might be a year faster or so to VR now... But you need to weigh the pro's and con's of that... my opinion is you'd be better off finishing the 3 year TOS... it's 3 years of pensionable time, 3 years paid work, and 3 years of experience than most other young officers don't get the luxury to have before they become an officer.
If it's "more than just" what you are telling us, there are limits to how much anyone can help you. What I will say is, if you've determined that the life of an infantry soldier is so much not for you than you can't bear to complete training and do ~2 years in a battalion... then you really need to reconsider whether or not you should be reapplying as an Infantry Officer*.
*I am just gathering from your old posts that this is still your plan, if you've figured something else out then please disregard.
ballz said:
I swore in June 21st and signed the same day flew out a few weeks later, you offer good advice if I planned on staying in infantry but that is part of the problem I would not be DEO into infantry officer. Things have changed in the years since my last posts had it not, 3 years wouldn't concern me but it did change and I'll try to get all the advice I can get from the padre who has dealt with things like this many times.
Eye In The Sky
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 3,781
- Points
- 1,160
I hear ya on the Padre part, they usually have the ear of the CO to one extent or the other. I'd also talk to your MCpl/Sgt, explain to them what the situation is..it is also very nice to have the support, or at least the understanding, of your Chain of Command. Make sense?
- Reaction score
- 12
- Points
- 530
Take a moment and read DAOD 5002-11, Special Commissioning Plan as the most likely way you could make the transition to officer while still serving. In the DAOD it lays out the basic requirements for the program, which are amplified each year in a CANFORGEN such as this year's: CANFORGEN 138/17 CMP 069/17 311356Z AUG 17 2018 SPECIAL COMMISSIONING PLAN (SCP) COMPETITION.
Note the basic requirement to meet is the Occupationally Functional Point "OFP". As defined in the DAOD for this purpose it is, "The “operationally functional point” is that point in the training progression of a CAF member when the CAF member has completed all qualifications required for first employment in their military occupation and is considered trained to an “operationally functional” level. The operationally functional point for each military occupation is set out in the military occupation specifications."
That is the authority for applying (whether or not you are accepted is another story), anyone else is just making things up as they go...
Note the basic requirement to meet is the Occupationally Functional Point "OFP". As defined in the DAOD for this purpose it is, "The “operationally functional point” is that point in the training progression of a CAF member when the CAF member has completed all qualifications required for first employment in their military occupation and is considered trained to an “operationally functional” level. The operationally functional point for each military occupation is set out in the military occupation specifications."
That is the authority for applying (whether or not you are accepted is another story), anyone else is just making things up as they go...
garb811 said:
This is what the recruiter showed me at the recruiting office and told me it would be atleast 3 years till I could apply for this then at basic they told me it would be till you reached mcpl. And of course another instructor who was there when I asked about it got back to me that it was only cpl.
- Reaction score
- 12
- Points
- 530
Maybe the best bet then, is to request to speak to the BPSO (Base Personnel Selection Officer) before the Padre. They are the SME on this stuff and at least that way you will have solid information to base your next moves off of.Pegula37 said:
- Reaction score
- 4,915
- Points
- 1,160
Playing the devil's advocate here: What's going to stop you from VRing if your father doesn't approve of your officer trade choice? What about if he doesn't like where you're posted? How many times are you willing to release and re-apply before A. You finally get what he wants, or B. the CAF stops allowing you back in because you've become an administrative burden?
Eye In The Sky
Army.ca Legend
- Reaction score
- 3,781
- Points
- 1,160
Pegula37 said:
And you've learned a valuable lesson in the ways of the military. There are a ton of regulations and policies that change, on an irregular basis. Not everyone knows them all, some people say they know when they actually don't, but the official policy will be what you need to be sure. SCP has nothing to do with RANK, it is centered around OFP.
OFP for different trades varies. For my trade, it is completion of your QL5. For my previous trade it was completion of QL3.
Lesson; source the official policy/regulation, whether it be the QR & O, CFAO, DAOD, etc and see what it says. You can't always trust what other people think/say.
- Reaction score
- 1,601
- Points
- 1,260
Pegula37 said:
You may, or may not, find this discussion of interest,
Special Commissioning Plan ( SCP )
https://army.ca/forums/threads/34926/post-1445143.html#msg1445143
4 pages.
As always, official CAF sources are your most trusted source of information.
- Reaction score
- 2
- Points
- 430
Depends on the trade. I know for armour crewman, you have to complete your first contract - period.
Doesn't matter what's going on outside either, like one of my troopers a couple years ago.
"I have a job waiting". RCAC and the Regiment - "Too bad. You signed the contract, you will live up to your obligations".
Regards
Doesn't matter what's going on outside either, like one of my troopers a couple years ago.
"I have a job waiting". RCAC and the Regiment - "Too bad. You signed the contract, you will live up to your obligations".
Regards
Blackadder1916
Army.ca Fixture
- Reaction score
- 2,867
- Points
- 1,160
Pegula37 said:
But did you read the references that garb811 linked? Yes, DAOD 5002-11 states that reaching OFP is required, but it also stresses the importance of the CO's recommendation.
This is often the reason why a lot of sometimes poorly referenced (and inaccurate) timelines for in-service commissioning programmes are bashed about. The simple reason is that, if a commanding officer takes this seriously (and 99.9% probably do, I know I did), to properly evaluate the leadership performance/potential of a very junior soldier, he (or at least the soldier's officers/NCOs) needs time and opportunity to observe the individual in action. That determination of "officer-like qualities" will be much more stringent than that guessed at by recruiting authorities. If you think that it will be a simple matter of having a degree, applying and being accepted, you may be disappointed. To get that commission while serving, you will have to prove yourself much more than those who enrol directly as officers. And the criteria for that CO's recommendation is largely left to the individual COs.