Wanted: Canadian DS Combats
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I don't recall seeing Tan Combats making it out in time for Desert Storm - it was a short war - at least not out to Op Scalpelgeo said:
edited. Had at first thought combat boots
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geo said:
Not quite correct. The early 1990's Tan combat uniform was constructed in two simultaneous versions, based on different materials. One was made from a fairly heavy-weight (but soft) 100% cotton. The other was a lightweight NYCO material similar (but not identical) to that used in the OG Combat uniform. The Tan NYCO material was lighter weight than the OG NYCO, with a more textured loose-weave construction.
I have examples of both in my personal collection, although only the lightweight NYCO version is currently shown on my website.
Hope this helps clarify the situation.
And yes, you will occasionally encounter the Tan Combat uniform in Canadian surplus stores. Our considerable operational stocks of the uniform were sold off by Crown Assets in 1999/2000. About a year before a bunch of us had to deploy to Southern Afghanistan in CADPAT TW. Good thinking.... dump the old desert uniform before the new one is ready..... :
We did manage to scrounge some brand new sets of the Tan Combats for our BG Recce Pl part way through the tour. We had to scour Canadian training bases, some of which had retained small quantities of the Tan uniform for "enemy force" use. If you look at the Combat Camera photos of 3 PPCLI Recce Pl during Op CHEROKEE SKY, you should be able to pick out the guys wearing the Canadian Tan Combat pants. Just a snippet of history to indicate that the uniform was in "unofficial" operational use as late as June 2002.
FWIW.
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Mark C said:Our considerable operational stocks of the uniform were sold off by Crown Assets in 1999/2000. About a year before a bunch of us had to deploy to Southern Afghanistan in CADPAT TW. Good thinking.... dump the old desert uniform before the new one is ready..... :
I don't think it's quite fair or logical to blame the government/bureaucrats for selling off uniforms that, from a practical standpoint at the time, were not going to be used for some time, if at all before the desert CADPAT became ready. Need I remind you that we only commited to Afghanistan in late 2001? In 1999 and 2000, there was no practical need for desert dress, as we were not really expecting to go into a desert campaign, at least not in actual combat, but rather as peacekeepers.
While I do agree equipment shouldn't be retired before we have a replacement ready and in sufficient numbers to be issued to all those who need it, I fail to see how it became so terribly bad to retire equipment that has no purpose (at least in current and predictable conditions).
If we suddenly needed tanks in 5 years, (I have no clue what for, but for the sake of argument...) would you slam the Crown for basically putting our Leopards in storage?
I am under the impression that the Strykers ('y'?) are the replacement for the Leopards. The Leopards are no longer and we have the Strykers. From what I observe, theres not much "Open time" betwean the two fazes.
Hmm, they may have well been US DS Combats... But i know for 100% that Canada had/ wore a desert style pattern in the early part of the first Gulf war... Could we have borrowed some form the US?
Hmm, they may have well been US DS Combats... But i know for 100% that Canada had/ wore a desert style pattern in the early part of the first Gulf war... Could we have borrowed some form the US?
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Guy. E said:
Heh, I could be wrong. I just thought the Leopards were the last MBT's we had, and the Strykers were something of an "MBT lite" form. So, they would replace the Leopards, but not completely.
Guess my analogy was a little screwy.
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Guy. E said:
The Leopards are still in use by the Strathcona's. We do not have any Strykers.
Frederik G said:
We still have the Leopards. We are supposed to getting the MGS. There is no comparing the two. Different vehicle, different role and definitely not a MBT, 'lite' or otherwise.
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Bigfoot,
I suspect that Guy is thinking of the British 2-colour Desert DPM uniforms that were worn by our personnel participating in the demining effort in Kuwait immediately following Desert Storm. To my knowledge, that is the only foreign Desert uniform to be "officially" issued and worn by Canadian soldiers.
British 2-colour Desert DPM uniforms were purchased for (and worn by) the 3 PPCLI Sniper Section during Op APOLLO, however that was an "unofficial" purchase made with unit funds. It was necessary due to the lack of an available CF-issue desert uniform. Members of 3 PPCLI Recce Pl also wore borrowed U.S. 3-colour Desert trousers during Op CHEROKEE SKY, but that was done for deception purposes rather than individual concealment.
Frederick G,
Sorry, but I don't buy your rationale one bit. And you need not remind me when we first committed to Afghanistan, as I was there.....
An "expectation" that we would not be deploying to a desert environment was insufficient grounds for disposing of our operational stock of tan uniforms prior to their replacement by CADPAT AR. In light of subsequent events, that "expectation" proved to be fundamentally flawed, didn't it? And when we suddenly needed desert uniforms they were decorating the shelves of army surplus stores across the nation.
It is not a bad thing to dispose of equipment that has been superceded or deemed inappropriate for future operations. However, It IS highly inadvisable to dispose of perfectly good kit based on manifestly flawed "predictions" of operational need. Some bean-counter at ADM Mat jumped the gun, made a stupid decision to prematurely scrap the existing desert uniform, and as a result we ended up deploying soldiers to an environment for which they were inappropriately equipped. In that context, it is absolutely "fair" and "logical" to assign blame for what proved to be a very poor bureaucratic decision.
A fundamental characteristic of "Roto 0" deployments is that they tend to emerge rather unexpectedly. There have been numerous recent examples of that current reality, aside from Op APOLLO. Consider 2 RCR's deployment to Eritrea - another desert operation for which there was no arid regions uniform available. Or consider that same unit's more recent deployment to Haiti. The latter occured in a matter of days from warning to boots on the ground. Short-notice deployments in response to unexpected developments around the globe have tended to be the rule rather than the exception since at least the mid-1990s. Woebetide the modern military force that lacks the foresight to maintain a reasonable stock of operational clothing for all conceivable environments.
"Not really expecting" to deploy to an arid environment is pathetically weak substantiation for not having maintained an operational stock of desert uniforms between the late 1990s and 2003. The sudden development of Op APOLLO (21 days from mission warning to deployment) was ample proof of that.
I will close by noting that your Leopard Tank analogy is flawed in relation to the desert uniform debacle. Mothballing equipment is one thing. Disposing of equipment which still has a viable operational purpose (and not replacing it) is another thing entirely. Mothballed equipment can be quickly restored to service should an operational need arise. The latter are gone for good. The desert uniforms were scrapped on the flawed premise that there was no potential operational requirement. And that premise was wrong, full-stop. When mistakes of that magnitude are made, it is indeed "fair" and "logical" to determine why the decision was made, and who was responsible. That is precisely how such mistakes are avoided in the future.
I suspect that Guy is thinking of the British 2-colour Desert DPM uniforms that were worn by our personnel participating in the demining effort in Kuwait immediately following Desert Storm. To my knowledge, that is the only foreign Desert uniform to be "officially" issued and worn by Canadian soldiers.
British 2-colour Desert DPM uniforms were purchased for (and worn by) the 3 PPCLI Sniper Section during Op APOLLO, however that was an "unofficial" purchase made with unit funds. It was necessary due to the lack of an available CF-issue desert uniform. Members of 3 PPCLI Recce Pl also wore borrowed U.S. 3-colour Desert trousers during Op CHEROKEE SKY, but that was done for deception purposes rather than individual concealment.
Frederick G,
Sorry, but I don't buy your rationale one bit. And you need not remind me when we first committed to Afghanistan, as I was there.....
An "expectation" that we would not be deploying to a desert environment was insufficient grounds for disposing of our operational stock of tan uniforms prior to their replacement by CADPAT AR. In light of subsequent events, that "expectation" proved to be fundamentally flawed, didn't it? And when we suddenly needed desert uniforms they were decorating the shelves of army surplus stores across the nation.
It is not a bad thing to dispose of equipment that has been superceded or deemed inappropriate for future operations. However, It IS highly inadvisable to dispose of perfectly good kit based on manifestly flawed "predictions" of operational need. Some bean-counter at ADM Mat jumped the gun, made a stupid decision to prematurely scrap the existing desert uniform, and as a result we ended up deploying soldiers to an environment for which they were inappropriately equipped. In that context, it is absolutely "fair" and "logical" to assign blame for what proved to be a very poor bureaucratic decision.
A fundamental characteristic of "Roto 0" deployments is that they tend to emerge rather unexpectedly. There have been numerous recent examples of that current reality, aside from Op APOLLO. Consider 2 RCR's deployment to Eritrea - another desert operation for which there was no arid regions uniform available. Or consider that same unit's more recent deployment to Haiti. The latter occured in a matter of days from warning to boots on the ground. Short-notice deployments in response to unexpected developments around the globe have tended to be the rule rather than the exception since at least the mid-1990s. Woebetide the modern military force that lacks the foresight to maintain a reasonable stock of operational clothing for all conceivable environments.
"Not really expecting" to deploy to an arid environment is pathetically weak substantiation for not having maintained an operational stock of desert uniforms between the late 1990s and 2003. The sudden development of Op APOLLO (21 days from mission warning to deployment) was ample proof of that.
I will close by noting that your Leopard Tank analogy is flawed in relation to the desert uniform debacle. Mothballing equipment is one thing. Disposing of equipment which still has a viable operational purpose (and not replacing it) is another thing entirely. Mothballed equipment can be quickly restored to service should an operational need arise. The latter are gone for good. The desert uniforms were scrapped on the flawed premise that there was no potential operational requirement. And that premise was wrong, full-stop. When mistakes of that magnitude are made, it is indeed "fair" and "logical" to determine why the decision was made, and who was responsible. That is precisely how such mistakes are avoided in the future.
All that I know now due to this discussion that some of, all of or those who acquired desert combats on they're own had some.
I know for a fact that at least one (is there ever just one in the army?) member of 1CER form CFB Chilliwack BC being in the first deployment to Kuwait form Canada had some desert style combats and I would like some of those, if nothing else, the pants.
I know for a fact that at least one (is there ever just one in the army?) member of 1CER form CFB Chilliwack BC being in the first deployment to Kuwait form Canada had some desert style combats and I would like some of those, if nothing else, the pants.
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Guy E,
I've laid it out for you. If your collecting objective was a 1 CER member deployed to Kuwait following Desert Storm, then he wore the British first-pattern (Cotton Twill) 2-colour Desert DPM uniform. Not to be mistaken for the current-issue "Soldier 95" (Airtex/Tea-bag) 2-colour Desert DPM uniform. They may look identical, but the materials are quite different. In 1991/92 the uniforms were manufactured from a lightweight 100% cotton twill. With the current-issue "Soldier 95" version, the material is a lighter-weight and looser cotton weave - hence the monniker "tea-bag".
Once again, eBay is your friend in sourcing what you seek. Having said that, most of what you currently find on eBay will be the current "Soldier 95" version of the British Desert DPM uniform. It may pay to search out your local Army Surplus shops, most of which are probably still stocking the tight-weave cotton first-pattern British 2-colour DPM uniforms from the 1991-94 time-frame.
Hope this helps.
I've laid it out for you. If your collecting objective was a 1 CER member deployed to Kuwait following Desert Storm, then he wore the British first-pattern (Cotton Twill) 2-colour Desert DPM uniform. Not to be mistaken for the current-issue "Soldier 95" (Airtex/Tea-bag) 2-colour Desert DPM uniform. They may look identical, but the materials are quite different. In 1991/92 the uniforms were manufactured from a lightweight 100% cotton twill. With the current-issue "Soldier 95" version, the material is a lighter-weight and looser cotton weave - hence the monniker "tea-bag".
Once again, eBay is your friend in sourcing what you seek. Having said that, most of what you currently find on eBay will be the current "Soldier 95" version of the British Desert DPM uniform. It may pay to search out your local Army Surplus shops, most of which are probably still stocking the tight-weave cotton first-pattern British 2-colour DPM uniforms from the 1991-94 time-frame.
Hope this helps.
Thank you for your reply
Sorry for not getting the picture on last night, I got distracted, however is seems you know exactly what I am looking for
My objective is what you stated. Thank you for your insight, it is very helpfull and appreciated.
Through the duration of this thread, I have gotten the impression that nobody has what I am looking for and thank everyone for they're time and help in understand exactly what I want, I will stop by the surplus store in Winnipeg the next time I am there.
Thanks again.
Sorry for not getting the picture on last night, I got distracted, however is seems you know exactly what I am looking for
My objective is what you stated. Thank you for your insight, it is very helpfull and appreciated.
Through the duration of this thread, I have gotten the impression that nobody has what I am looking for and thank everyone for they're time and help in understand exactly what I want, I will stop by the surplus store in Winnipeg the next time I am there.
Thanks again.
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Guy,
A picture (and an explanation) would have helped us from the start......
Also - note that 1CER and all Field Engineers have deployed to many places - even before Gulf War 1. We has some EOD people out in the Gulf after the Iran/Iraq dust up & after the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan. The operational needs of the time would / could explain the use of Brit uniforms.
A picture (and an explanation) would have helped us from the start......
Also - note that 1CER and all Field Engineers have deployed to many places - even before Gulf War 1. We has some EOD people out in the Gulf after the Iran/Iraq dust up & after the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan. The operational needs of the time would / could explain the use of Brit uniforms.
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