WAR OF 1812: UNIT RECOGNITION

[Infanteer]

So the question you ask, does Detroit cheapen other honours?  Based on these and many other measures, it does not.  The case is on firm ground and "Detroit" in my opinion, enhances existing CF honours.  In talking with friends in the units receiving the emblazoned honour, they are beaming with pride.

No qualms with Battle Honours predating Confederation; it is stretching the idea of perpetuation as far as it can go that bothers me.  What's next, American Revolutionary Battle Honours for units near historic native nations that raided for the British?

Oh well, I imagine similar teeth-gnashing occurred when they were giving out the CEF's First World War battle honours....

 

[Old Sweat]

Oh well, I imagine similar teeth-gnashing occurred when they were giving out the CEF's First World War battle honours....

Indeed it did, and it took years to resolve with claims and counter-claims and appeals and rebuttals and... And once the Great War was out of the way, somehow the issue of Boer War battle honours came up and, in my opinion, some rather dubious claims were accepted.

Back on track. Sorry for the sidetrack. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It's really too bad that the government can't seem to place as much import on the timely passage and presentation of modern day awards and honours, battle and otherwise, as they can in trying to perpetuate such tenuous examples as the 1812 ones. Perhaps they are trying to establish the 200 year mark as a standard :

 

[Robert Henderson]

Indeed it did, and it took years to resolve with claims and counter-claims and appeals and rebuttals and... And once the Great War was out of the way, somehow the issue of Boer War battle honours came up and, in my opinion, some rather dubious claims were accepted.

Back on track. Sorry for the sidetrack. 

Good points and inter-connected.  For example, reading the correspondence of the creation of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment in 1951 and its perpetuation of WWI RNR with its honours I see the same struggles that occur in such matters.  RNR was a condition for Newfoundland joining confederation and therefore a political decision.  The way CF HQ phased their letters with MOD in London to get perpetuation approved, they didn't appear to be happy.  The important point is that the RNR decision in 1951 and the War of 1812 decision now was far from being a political whim.  I am sure there will be truck loads of documents concerning the matter that will come unlocked in 50 years. 

 

[Robert Henderson]

It's really too bad that the government can't seem to place as much import on the timely passage and presentation of modern day awards and honours, battle and otherwise, as they can in trying to perpetuate such tenuous examples as the 1812 ones. Perhaps they are trying to establish the 200 year mark as a standard :

Contrary to popular opinion, Governments have never liked entering the realm of the CDS because of concern it may diminish the CDS's control over CF.  That said, I would not presume the Government is absent in trying to honour more recent valour in a timely manner.    However, if you think it is a matter of elected officials waving a magical wand, you are mistaken.

 

[Danjanou]

Good points and inter-connected.  For example, reading the correspondence of the creation of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment in 1951 and its perpetuation of WWI RNR with its honours I see the same struggles that occur in such matters.  RNR was a condition for Newfoundland joining confederation and therefore a political decision.  The way CF HQ phased their letters with MOD in London to get perpetuation approved, they didn't appear to be happy.  The important point is that the RNR decision in 1951 and the War of 1812 decision now was far from being a political whim.  I am sure there will be truck loads of documents concerning the matter that will come unlocked in 50 years.

FYI  The abbreviation for the Regiment is RNFLDR , the  RNR is the  Royal Naval Reserve, we're a wee bit touchy about that. Section 44 of the 1948 Newfoundland  Act  notes that the Regiment and other militia units will be maintained.

http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/nfa.html

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Contrary to popular opinion, Governments have never liked entering the realm of the CDS because of concern it may diminish the CDS's control over CF.  That said, I would not presume the Government is absent in trying to honour more recent valour in a timely manner.    However, if you think it is a matter of elected officials waving a magical wand, you are mistaken.

Now your going to try and convince me that this whole 1812 thing has no government input, direction or purpose? All the CDS and the CF's doing?

Please. I was born at night, but not last night baby.

As to recognising valour. Research how long it took to staff and present decorations in WWII and what they are now. People can't even get a CD out of Ottawa in a timely manner.

Enough sidetrack though.

I'm not convinced, nor will be.

 

[aesop081]

  However, if you think it is a matter of elected officials waving a magical wand, you are mistaken.

No. They are not mistaken.

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/v2/nr-sp/index-eng.asp?id=12437

 

[Edward Campbell]

Now your going to try and convince me that this whole 1812 thing has no government input, direction or purpose? All the CDS and the CF's doing?

Please. I was born at night, but not last night baby.

As to recognising valour. Research how long it took to staff and present decorations and what they are now. People can't even get a CD out of Ottawa in a timely manner.

Enough sidetrack though.

I'm not convinced, nor will be.

At the risk of continuing the sidetrack ...

I think you are 99% correct. First off, if this was a DND/CF initiative we you they would still be arguing about it in 2022!

What we are seeing here is a (largely) politically driven branding initiative ~ something that has slight but aggressive public support, like this, for example, negligible opposition and costs next to nothing - even for the silly, plastic pins. It started from outside government, never had significant military support (or input, as far as I have heard (at the bar of the Army Officers' Mess)) and was picked up by the PMO (not PCO) as a "neat idea."

But, it is, essentially, harmless - battle honours were never, I think as systematic as many of our members would like to think. Like others here I am more concerned about the bureaucratic molasses through which 21st century honour and awards for serving sailors, soldiers and air force members must swim (upstream) before being awarded.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The RCR INVADES DETROIT!!!

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

If we really want to get all patriotic and celebrate a war we need to start wearing and selling these T-Shirts!

 

[4Feathers]

Well if the United States failed in its invasion of Iraq, would that have been called a stalemate?  1812 took invasion off the list as an option for dealing with the northern border of the United States.

I invite you to read the history of the war if you have not already. The Americans repelled the British Forces several times, and won historic battles including the Battle of New Orleans, where the American National Anthem originated "the rockets red glare". My point is, that the only loser in the war was the 1st Nations Peoples, who were abandoned by the British Forces and subsequently began a very quick decline as a society. The peace after the war was politically motivated, not one made from a decisive military victory. I wear my pin as ordered, but can't wait for the day someone makes the decision to throw them away. The pin is a joke on a uniform that otherwise has only worn medals and recognition from things that I am proud I earned.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I invite you to read the history of the war if you have not already. The Americans repelled the British Forces several times, and won historic battles including the Battle of Waterloo, where the American National Anthem originated "the rockets red glare". My point is, that the only loser in the war was the 1st Nations Peoples, who were abandoned by the British Forces and subsequently began a very quick decline as a society. The peace after the war was politically motivated, not one made from a decisive military victory. I wear my pin as ordered, but can't wait for the day someone makes the decision to throw them away. The pin is a joke on a uniform that otherwise has only worn medals and recognition from things that I am proud I earned.

Uhmmm ... Waterloo? Really?

 

[Old Sweat]

The Americans  . . . won historic battles including the Battle of Waterloo, where the American National Anthem originated "the rockets red glare".

Tell us you're joking, please.  :facepalm:

 

[4Feathers]

Tell us you're joking, please.  :facepalm:

Not joking, just tired and made an error, good pick up.
In the United States, victories at the Battle of New Orleans in 1815 and in the Battle of Baltimore of 1814 (which inspired the lyrics of the United States national anthem, "The Star-Spangled Banner") produced a sense of euphoria over a "second war of independence" against Britain. Peace brought an "Era of Good Feelings" in which partisan animosity nearly vanished.

 

[jeffb]

I invite you to read the history of the war if you have not already. The Americans repelled the British Forces several times, and won historic battles including the Battle of Waterloo, where the American National Anthem originated "the rockets red glare".

The anthem was penned during the British naval bombardment of Fort McHenry in Baltimore Harbour. The Battle of Waterloo took place 8 months later in Belgum with the French on one side and a combined Allied army comprised largely of the British and the Prussian Army.

I have studied the war quite extensively and in an ironic sort of way there is actually quite a strong link between the defeat of Napoleon (although much earlier in 1814) and the end of the War of 1812. Ultimately, it was the defeat of Napolean which freed up the Royal Navy to conduct a close blockade on the US. In addition, the US' economy had been propped up by beef and other food sales to Wellington's Army in the Peninsula. Not only was the Royal Navy freed up for this task, the British Army no longer needed American food stuffs. As the American economy tanked in mid to late 1814, the cries for peace grew very loud. The land battles in 1812, 1813 and 1814 were critical to set the conditions but they were not the ultimate cause for the end of the war.

As for your argument that no one won, that is one of the big narratives in the historiography of the war. The reasons for this narrative are long (see John Lattimer's book 1812 if you really care) but it ultimately falls short. Bottom line, the US tried to annex British North America. British Regulars and the Royal Navy, with some minor augmentation from units raised from BNA and natives, prevented this annexation. Impressment was still British policy in 1814 and the US economy was in shambles. On the US side the only real winners were the few generals who used the war to propel them to the Presidency. (Jackson for example) 

 

[Journeyman]

.... and made an error...

Several errors.

Having backtracked on the Americans' winning Waterloo and the US national anthem making reference to New Orleans, you're willing to let stand your belief that the British of 1815 are responsible for the current aboriginal situation?

As for the uniform only bearing medals and recognition from things earned, does that include poppies, "Warrior Badges" for doing a PT test, brigade patches....?

 

[Robert Henderson]

Not joking, just tired and made an error, good pick up.
In the United States, victories at the Battle of New Orleans in 1815 and in the Battle of Baltimore of 1814 (which inspired the lyrics of the United States national anthem, "The Star-Spangled Banner") produced a sense of euphoria over a "second war of independence" against Britain. Peace brought an "Era of Good Feelings" in which partisan animosity nearly vanished.

How many Canadians fought at Baltimore and New Orleans?  Zero.  Unfortunately you are completely missing the point that you must measure success or failure by operational objectives.  Wartime objective of the United States was the taking of Canada.  Period.  Soooo how did they do?  'A failure worse than Vietnam' is how Roosevelt's son, described the War of 1812, based on the said perimeters.  In context of this discussion, that is what we are talking about: The Military Role of Canadians in the War of 1812.       

The 1814 campaign in the United States by the British was the result of a change in British wartime objectives.  To the spring of 1814, Britain had a defensive posture against the United States.  With the fall of Paris and Napoleon's abdication, Britain switched to territorial gain.  Baltimore and New Orleans was the result.  This has nothing to do with 1812 Canadian Unit recognitiion.

 

[Robert Henderson]

Now your going to try and convince me that this whole 1812 thing has no government input, direction or purpose? All the CDS and the CF's doing?

Please. I was born at night, but not last night baby.

As to recognising valour. Research how long it took to staff and present decorations in WWII and what they are now. People can't even get a CD out of Ottawa in a timely manner.

Enough sidetrack though.

I'm not convinced, nor will be.

There are two separate things here.  1. Political/Government direction and 2. the day-to-day workings of the Canadian Forces.  1812 Perpetuation was an election promise (in successful party's election platform) and was included in the speech from the throne.  That is Government policy direction. How Government policy is implemented is then figured out.  If necessary, the MND or Cabinet (Governor in Council) can order the CDS under the National Defence Act.  1812 perpetuation is government policy.  It does not effect unit percedence.

Everything else you mention, from medals and new Battle Honours for recent wars is NDHQ's delivery on existing policy.  If NDHQ ignores its own policy then the Government can try to hold them accountable.  You are pissed at program delivery, not a change in policy direction.  Government dislikes getting into program delivery: the CDS's realm.  That is what I meant.     
 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

There are two separate things here.  1. Political/Government direction and 2. the day-to-day workings of the Canadian Forces.  1812 Perpetuation was an election promise (in successful party's election platform) and was included in the speech from the throne.  That is Government policy direction. How Government policy is implemented is then figured out.  If necessary, the MND or Cabinet (Governor in Council) can order the CDS under the National Defence Act.  1812 perpetuation is government policy.  It does not effect unit percedence.

Everything else you mention, from medals and new Battle Honours for recent wars is NDHQ's delivery on existing policy.  If NDHQ ignores its own policy then the Government can try to hold them accountable.  You are pissed at program delivery, not a change in policy direction.  Government dislikes getting into program delivery: the CDS's realm.  That is what I meant.     

I'm not pissed at the program delivery. Please don't presume to know what I think.

So what is your involvement in all this?

If you're involved, how much and what is the extent of your input?

Are you one of the people that conceived of these 'perpetuations' and researched what units should be involved?

Did you, or your group, pushed to have the unit associations recognised and Battle Honours awarded?

What is this group, if there is one?

What is your official capacity?

I guess what I want to know is how partisan you are to this whole process.

Humour me.