What manner of medals are these?

[Pusser]

Its a good question....not the usual subject matter I get myself concerned with. But I know several guys with the Jordan training gong on the end....they were all declined permission to wear it.

Not that I give much of a damn...but as a side bar. I mean it wouldnt be the first time where things are decided two ways

I can't speak to this specific case, but there are times when one person will be legitimately denied permission to wear a medal while another will be legitimately granted permission to wear the same one.  It would all depend on the circumstances.  For example, one CF member could be denied permission to wear a certain foreign medal because Canada has issued another medal for the same service (we have a policy against dual recognition).  At the same time another CF member who earned the same foreing medal while a member of a foreign armed force at the time in question, could be granted permission to wear it upon joining the CF at a later date. 

 

[Pusser]

Why are we even talking about this?  It is not as if this guy is some Walter Mitty.  Service in 3 militaries, one of which is considered an elite fighting force.  Multiple operations overseas and now he has decided to give more sweat a blood serving as a police officer.  I think these medals symbolise a story, one which I would very much like to hear rather then hide it.

IMO, I would rather see this guy wear his medals with pride then see some honorary Colonel, who isn't even a real soldier, walk around like he owns the place  with his Knight's Order, Golden Jubilee, Diamond Jubilee and whatever other wingding we can award him/her to pad his/her uniform.

Whether he earned them or not is not the issue.  The point is that there is a proper way to wear medals in Canada, especially on a CF uniform.  If one wishes to wear foreign honours in conjunction with Canadian honours, then one must gain permission from the Chancellery to do so.  If the wearer has not applied for and received permission, he is in violation of both CF regulation and government policy. 

 

[Journeyman]

Why are we even talking about this?

Looking at who posted the question, answers it.  :boring:

 

[X Royal]

if HE'S oooold enough, could he have spent time with 3 Mech Cdo in Germany?  A dusty recess of my brain reminds me (and I stand to be corrected) that even Mo' who had red leaf jump wings before working with them were eligible for white leaf wings afterwards, whether they jumped or not in Germany.

It's already been stated his qualification for the white leaf wings.
"QOR para Pl"

 

[Infanteer]

Whether he earned them or not is not the issue.  The point is that there is a proper way to wear medals in Canada, especially on a CF uniform.  If one wishes to wear foreign honours in conjunction with Canadian honours, then one must gain permission from the Chancellery to do so.  If the wearer has not applied for and received permission, he is in violation of both CF regulation and government policy.

If you are concerned, write his unit to find out.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Whether he earned them or not is not the issue.  The point is that there is a proper way to wear medals in Canada, especially on a CF uniform.  If one wishes to wear foreign honours in conjunction with Canadian honours, then one must gain permission from the Chancellery to do so.  If the wearer has not applied for and received permission, he is in violation of both CF regulation and government policy.

You are technically right and for that I cannot fault you; however, are you going to be the one to tell him he can't wear his medals?  I urge you to pay a visit to the member and advise him of the regulations then post it on the forum so we can all see how the discussion unfolded.

Just because there is a regulation doesn't make it right and I view the critiquing of this guys "rack" as nothing more then people suffering from envy.  I had a Brit in my platoon for a few years and he had a number of operational medals from his service in the Brit Army including NI and Iraq.  If our Generals get to wear their foreign medals without so much a whisper then why shouldn't a Corporal who rightfully earned it?  I told him to wear his medals with pride and not another word was spoken about it!

 

 

[Danjanou]

I knew there had to be a simple answer. :

And Daft and Barmy gave it at the beginning. He's a Seaforth. As soon as I saw the collar dogs there was no question re the odd rack.  8)

 

[dapaterson]

~slow clap~   

There's penicillin for that...

 

[George Wallace]

I can't speak to this specific case, but there are times when one person will be legitimately denied permission to wear a medal while another will be legitimately granted permission to wear the same one.  It would all depend on the circumstances.  For example, one CF member could be denied permission to wear a certain foreign medal because Canada has issued another medal for the same service (we have a policy against dual recognition).  At the same time another CF member who earned the same foreing medal while a member of a foreign armed force at the time in question, could be granted permission to wear it upon joining the CF at a later date.

I have had a Trooper with  a couple of Tours in Vietnam as a member of the US military.  He had to apply to the wear his American medals.  He had several, of only which only a few were approved for wear with his CF uniform; not all. 

In this case, we may also look at this member having approval to wear all his medals at his civilian Policing job, and not have a second set to wear that would meet any CAF regulations. 

I agree with RoyalDrew, these Decorations indicate an interesting story to be told.

 

[The Bread Guy]

It's already been stated his qualification for the white leaf wings.
"QOR para Pl"

Doooh!  Thx!

 

[Danjanou]

Whether he earned them or not is not the issue.  The point is that there is a proper way to wear medals in Canada, especially on a CF uniform.  If one wishes to wear foreign honours in conjunction with Canadian honours, then one must gain permission from the Chancellery to do so.  If the wearer has not applied for and received permission, he is in violation of both CF regulation and government policy.

And you are presuming he hasn't. Sorry did I miss the memo from Rideau Hall making you high poobah of buttons and bows?

You are technically right and for that I cannot fault you; however, are you going to be the one to tell him he can't wear his medals?  I urge you to pay a visit to the member and advise him of the regulations then post it on the forum so we can all see how the discussion unfolded.

Having been privileged to wear that capbadge, please let me know when Pusser is going to make his visit to the Seaforths JRs and do so. Should be interesting to say the least. The Seaforths have a long history of "foreign service" as D&B can also attest.

Just because there is a regulation doesn't make it right and I view the critiquing of this guys "rack" as nothing more then people suffering from envy.  I had a Brit in my platoon for a few years and he had a number of operational medals from his service in the Brit Army including NI and Iraq.  If our Generals get to wear their foreign medals without so much a whisper then why shouldn't a Corporal who rightfully earned it?  I told him to wear his medals with pride and not another word was spoken about it!

Agreed. one of the more pleasant bits of staff work I did as a CSM was when a new not so young  Pte was wheeled in front of me and wanted permission to wear the medals he earned in the US Army before coming (back?) to Canada. Did the paper work sent it up the chain and told him to put them up until told otherwise.  As our Reserve unit was in TO it turned out he wasn't the only "new" Canadian with former service. I soon had the staff work for that task down to an art form and a lot of my troops wearing the bling they'd earned if they chose to.

 

[dapaterson]

So you're suggesting that leaders should know their subordinates and look out for their welfare?

 

[Danjanou]

So you're suggesting that leaders should know their subordinates and look out for their welfare?

Yeah heresy I know. Probably why I get to write retired after my rank now should I be so inclined.  8)

 

[Lightguns]

I can't speak to this specific case, but there are times when one person will be legitimately denied permission to wear a medal while another will be legitimately granted permission to wear the same one.  It would all depend on the circumstances.  For example, one CF member could be denied permission to wear a certain foreign medal because Canada has issued another medal for the same service (we have a policy against dual recognition).  At the same time another CF member who earned the same foreing medal while a member of a foreign armed force at the time in question, could be granted permission to wear it upon joining the CF at a later date.

Seen that once too.  DHH should be keeping an online database.  Once an award is approved, it goes into the database for all unit RSM's to view.  If an RSM has a request to wear an award he compares it to the database; if it is there, the request granted at the unit level and the member's memo is returned noting the award's database number and permission to wear,  A note in the member's MPPR should be made as well so that some other unit does not get a knot on when the member is posted in.  If the medal is not there the request is forwarded for DHH consideration.  That eliminates the personal vulgarities in the system, some Vietnam vets I knew felt that unit level anti-Americanism or jealousy was keeping them from wearing their awards when others in other units wear allowed to wear the same awards.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Here is another thing that infuriates me about this situation!  All day all I hear is people talk about professional development and here is a prime candidate to give that sort of PD we are so desperately striving for!

Has his unit used his operational experience to give lectures?  Has there been any NCM PD done, have we used this soldier to promote knew ideas in an attempt to develop better TTP's? 

Instead of asking these real good questions we are focusing on what this guys rack looks like and it is quite frankly pathetic! 

/RANT ENDS

 

[noneck]

As D&B (amongst a few others) pointed out this soldier did indeed earn all of these medals in addition to his wings. At 50 years old DS is still one of the fittest soldiers in my Platoon. He brings a wealth of experience and maturity to the rifle company and punches well above his weight in all tasks that he is given.

He joined the Mo, then moved to the UK and joined the QOH, did his 3 years and then joined 2 REP for 5. Coming back to Canada he joined the QOR while going to school, before ending up in the RCMP. As a member of the RCMP he has 3 operational deployments, Jordan, Afghanistan and the DRC. He came to the Seaforths after his Afghan tour.

He will be amused by the amount of interest his rack has generated!!

Cheers
Noneck

 

[Fishbone Jones]

As D&B (amongst a few others) pointed out this soldier did indeed earn all of these medals in addition to his wings. At 50 years old DS is still one of the fittest soldiers in my Platoon. He brings a wealth of experience and maturity to the rifle company and punches well above his weight in all tasks that he is given.

He joined the Mo, then moved to the UK and joined the QOH, did his 3 years and then joined 2 REP for 5. Coming back to Canada he joined the QOR while going to school, before ending up in the RCMP. As a member of the RCMP he has 3 operational deployments, Jordan, Afghanistan and the DRC. He came to the Seaforths after his Afghan tour.

He will be amused by the amount of interest his rack has generated!!

Cheers
Noneck

And I say that's all the explanation this thread warrants or needs.

Good on the soldier in question

That'll end the discussion on his gaining them,

and the discussion on his wearing them.

He has a CoC that can look after that.............. if, they feel the need. Although I somehow doubt they do.

---Staff---

 

[George Wallace]

Posted over LOCK. 

I received this clarification of an earlier post.  It has nothing to do with the accomplishments of the individual in question, but on the rules on wearing medals/decorations/awards on CAF uniforms.

I also agree that there is an interesting story to be told.  I never questioned that, nor am I disputing whether he earned the medals or not.  I don't know and I don't really care.

It is entirely understandable that your former US soldiers would have received permission to wear some, but not all of their American medals.  All Canadian honours emanate from the Crown; therefore, only those foreign honours that also emanate from the head of state level will be approved for wear in conjunction with Canadian honours.  The US Armed Forces issue medals that emanate from both the President, as well as other levels of government.  Thus, Canada will approve medals that come from the President, but not from the Secretary of Defense for example.

Wearing his medals in both his police uniform and CF uniform should not be an issue at all.  None of the medals we wear come from the CF (although you have to be a CF member to earn some of them).  They all come from the Crown or are approved by the Crown (e.g. UN and NATO medals).  The Chancellery manages all of this.  If the Chancellery has approved our Seaforth friend's application, then he will have permission to wear his foreign medals in conjunction with his Canadian medals at all times where the wearing of medals is appropriate.  As an RCMP member, it would be extremely simple as they have virtually identical regulations as the CF does on this issue.  In fact, both the RCMP and the CF have representatives on the same Chancellery committees.

It's a shame this thread was locked before I had a chance to explain this in detail.

Just a bit of further clarification as well:  It is not up to the individual, nor someone within a unit, as to what medals/decorations they wear.  Those who have done Nijmegen Marches, for instance, were presented a medal.  They are not permitted to add that to their row of medals to be worn on their DEU.  A bit of an extreme example, but to amplify what Pusser has pointed out; the medals/decorations that you are permitted to wear have to be approved by the "Chancellery" in Ottawa, not someone in your unit nor on your own initiative.

 

[Danjanou]

posting over the lock to add this update

http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/news-publications/national-news-details-no-menu.page?doc=he-s-a-sergeant-by-day-and-a-corporal-by-night%2Fhrvtvkdp