Why Not Canadian Amphib/Marine Capability? (merged)

[aesop081]

And i see that joe is NOT familiar with the F/A-18 family at all .

 

[Island Ryhno]

I believe that you are all taking my post out of context, I'm not saying that we don't need subs or fighter capable jets, I'm saying that the money spend on these aging wonders could be put to better use. Say for example an updated armoured corp! I'm trying to look at large problems, what's the point of having a fleet of CF 18's when we can't get our troops anywhere, couldn't the vast amounts of money being spent on the subs etc just to keep them afloat or flying be spent on say an attack helicopter or 2 really good subs as opposed to 4 mediocre ones. Also no one who replied to my post had anything to say on the Ranger idea, all that was done was an attack on an idea and a stern lecture. I'm not some half assed know it all, I was offering an opinion, and if I needed a lecture well that's what I have a wife for  BTW Danjanou, I'm not anti marine, I did not state that in any of my post's, perhaps your safety is off. I'm very proud of what the RNFLDR is and I agree that we are the closest thing to a marine unit that Canada has, I just don't see the practicality of it, we can't move infantry without hitching a ride, we sure as hell are not going to get new ships for a marine corps. Also, I own original copies of "The Fighting Newfoundlander" and "More Fighting Newfoundlanders" which came from relatives who served in both wars. I don't need a history lesson. I can't argue your experience, just don't talk at me, speak to me. I'm on your side!

 

[aesop081]

I believe that you are all taking my post out of context, I'm not saying that we don't need subs or fighter capable jets, I'm saying that the money spend on these aging wonders could be put to better use. Say for example an updated armoured corp! I'm trying to look at large problems, what's the point of having a fleet of CF 18's when we can't get our troops anywhere, couldn't the vast amounts of money being spent on the subs etc just to keep them afloat or flying be spent on say an attack helicopter or 2 really good subs as opposed to 4 mediocre ones. Also no one who replied to my post had anything to say on the Ranger idea, all that was done was an attack on an idea and a stern lecture. I'm not some half assed know it all, I was offering an opinion, and if I needed a lecture well that's what I have a wife for   BTW Danjanou, I'm not anti marine, I did not state that in any of my post's, perhaps your safety is off. I'm very proud of what the RNFLDR is and I agree that we are the closest thing to a marine unit that Canada has, I just don't see the practicality of it, we can't move infantry without hitching a ride, we sure as hell are not going to get new ships for a marine corps. Also, I own original copies of "The Fighting Newfoundlander" and "More Fighting Newfoundlanders" which came from relatives who served in both wars. I don't need a history lesson. I can't argue your experience, just don't talk at me, speak to me. I'm on your side!

Yes the money spent on CF-18s could be spent elsewhere but it needs to be spent on CF-18s because they are what we have and we MUST maintain the capability to control our own airspace.  You cannot control airspace with tanks or attack hellicopters. Yes we couls have better subs......we have to have more than 2 for it to work so the gov purchassed what it beleive it could afford ( right or wrong).  You cannot control sea aproaches with tanks or attack hellicopters.  So spending the money on the army is not "spending it on better uses".  You seem to think in a single dimension. Terrorism, as i have said before along with others , is not the only game in town. Would you say that the money spent upgarding the CP-140 aurora is money that could be better spent on new APCs ? You are presumably aware that there are other roles the military has to fullfill

BTW...i like the ranger concept......

 

[JBP]

Sorry Joe I go by the directly from the USN itself. It's thier end-all be all "Fact File" web resource so what is incorrect in that? Janes would have probably the same info. This is just info directly from the source. Maybe that USN Commander should be dry-cleaning your shirt my friend!

As for me not knowing anything about F-18 variants, mentioned by aesop081, what did I incorrectly mention since that's exactly what I've read from my Janes All the Worlds Aircraft book+Navy Fact file?...

You guys can nit-pick and banter all you like about it but the fact still remains, you cannot dispute valid information. Regardless, it's there, I provided a link to it. Click on it...

As stated before, I agree it would be nice to have a JSS ship with helo support etc. Would give us some real power projection and self reliance.

Joe
Done with this thread ships I sailed with over the past 11 years so my point still stands. I also showed your response to a USN Commander and I owe him money to dry clean his shirt. If you want accurate info go for Janes.

Well, not my fault your information is out-dated and you got suckered by a USN Commander...
I got this info

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Joe you really don't have a clue do you? I work with this information every day, but I see you are the type of kid that has to be right all the time so there is no point arguing with you any further.

Nations like Finland and Iceland etc... Have been disputing Artic territories with us for years

Please show me proof that we are in dispute with Finland. last I checked their only water border was with the Baltic Sea not the Arctic Ocean. The other 3 sides are taken up by Sweden, Norway and Russia. Nice try though.

I never got suckered by the Commander, I am not sure where you got that idea he spilled a drink all over his shirt from laughing at you "no clue" post. His words not mine.

 

[George Wallace]

The following Warning should be applied to all books dealing in such matters:

Information contained in this publication MAY BE current as of the time it was put to paper; It is to be considered OUTDATED once it has been put to print.

GW

 

[aesop081]

Joe...i see you can't even be bothered to read your own references........like i said, you have no clue !

But thats OK.....Ex-D and myself don't have to work daily with this kind of information....

 

[Island Ryhno]

Hey Aesop, I understand that we do have other roles and obligations. However this is a fantasy post, and as it is a fantasy post, I'd like to say that I'm going to win as CDS Hillier is on my side and there will be no more Navy or Airforce, unless you're moving something belonging to the Army...LOL  ;D A marine corps would be fun though, maybe I'd get an opportunity at a para course then  :'(

 

[Infanteer]

Joe, take your complaints/defence/vindication to the PM.  You talked out of your lane and got nailed for it - take you lumps and revert to observer status.

Unless there is any more discussion of Marines, this one seems to be coming to an end.

Back on topic, anyone?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The following links illustrate the comparison in aviation assets for the Wasp, Tarawa and now decommissioned Iwo Jima classes:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/lhd-1.htm(wasp)
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/lha-1.htm (tar)
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/lph-2.htm (ij)

 

[aesop081]

I think a canadianized marine corps is beyond the reach of the CF.  I don't think we will ever be able to muster the resources needed to create and maintain it.  We can just as well develop an better expeditionary concept/capability for the army we already have. Sea-basing is more likely in the canadian context.  I do not forsee any need for the CF to make "forced-entry ops" onto foreign shores any time soon.

Island ryhno:

CDS Hillier asside, the world will not revolve around the army, fantasy or not.  Sovereignty demands it.  Unless we start painting auroras green to do fish pat !

EDIT : Damn you Ex-D....you beat me to it !!  :threat:

 

[Island Ryhno]

LMAO Aesop, agreed  ;D

 

[Danjanou]

ExD

Curious were all those Iwo Jima class scrapped or just mothballed and if the later would one or two fill the need we've been talking about here and elsewhere of a dedicated troop transport/support ship for future ops (including DART style humanitarian ones)?

Presuming we're not a bit gun shy as to "buying used" from our allies again.

I remember one coming into Vancouver years back and getting a tour. Impressed this (then) young infantry type.

Rhyno PM heading your way.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Dan from what I remember only the USS Iwo Jima was scrapped the rest are in mothballs waiting for disposal.

EDIT:
did some more research and this is the status of the Iwo Jima class.
LPH 2  Iwo Jima        14 July 1993    Sold 18 Dec 1995 for scrap 25 Sept 1993   
LPH 3  Okinawa        17 Dec 1992$  Sunk as a target 5 June 2002
LPH 7  Guadalcanal    31 Aug 1994$  To MarAd 16 Mar 2001
LPH 9  Guam 25 Aug 1998 Stricken 11/98 retroactive to 25 Aug 98  11/98 Sunk as a target 16 Oct 2001
LPH 10  Tripoli        8 Sept 1995    Leased to US Army 26 June 1997
15 Sept 1995
LPH 11 New Orleans 1 Oct 1997 Held for donation, Suisun Bay
23 Oct 1998
MCS 12 Inchon 28 Feb 2002 Pending disposal, Philadelphia 20 June 2002

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

A thought hit me and I was wondering if the more senior types could shed some light on this. IF (unlikely) Canada was to form some sort of Naval Infantry unit would it be more likely a new fresh unit or a unit that had their Colours laid up and made zero strength?

 

[George Wallace]

I suppose to do so we should get some JSS to move them around in.   What strength would you want the force to be?   Bn strength per JSS?    Make three JSS and take a Bn out of each Bde?  

Would we be smart to also create a Regt like the RAF Regt in the future, to deploy and defend forward Airfields?

GW

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I figure a 4 Bn Regiment with the prerequisite support and headquarters elements. With 4 Bn you could have 2 ready to go or deployed, 1 Bn that is on reduced readiness and another working up for deployment.

 

[Infanteer]

Whould you split up your 4 battalions between the East and West Coast (perhaps centralizing Fleet assets) or consolidate on one (can we afford to not put all our eggs in one basket)?   What is the transit time for big ships through the Panama Canal if something should FUBAR on the wrong ocean?

 

[Meridian]

Not to burst anyone's pipe dream... but... where would the political capital for this come from?

I agree with AESOP that CDS Hillier will try to make the army front and centre, but in reality, you have to understand what Canadians in general expect from their military.

Right now, a specialized force of amphibious mounted troops is a bit much to hope for. I honestly will admit I do not know much about the topic, but coming from every-day-schmoe outlook here, if i heard that we were going to be spending X dollars creating yet another service [BRANCH, sorry] when the current three are already screaming for increased funds just to sustain what they have.....


Also, would a useful marine force   not also require a *more* useful navy?  

 

[FSTO]

Whould you split up your 4 battalions between the East and West Coast (perhaps centralizing Fleet assets) or consolidate on one (can we afford to not put all our eggs in one basket)?   What is the transit time for big ships through the Panama Canal if something should FUBAR on the wrong ocean?

The best of my knowledge for transit time is a minimum of 3 weeks at sea.

You also have to realize that with only 3 ships, you will have to take into account Work periods and refits so that at any one time up to 2 ships may be unavailable. That is why we need 4 ships min.

Now wait a sec while I secure my chin strap.

This Joint Support Ship is DUMB, DUMB, DUMB, DUMB!

Who is going to own this ship? The Army? DCDS? Joint Force HQ? The Frickn UN? Certainly won't be the Navy.
When the ship is on RIMPAC doing RAS will it have to run back to Esquimalt then Vancouver to load up equipment driving from Edmonton.
There are so many conflicting users of this asset that it will take a whole command to be able to schedule its itinerary.
Then there is training to run this thing, embarking the equipment and then getting it ashore. Christ we haven't done this since Normandy.

If we insist on having this capability then lets do it right.
The Navy needs new AORs. Then lets get them- 20,000 tons and HIGHLY automated (maybe even civilian crews?) 4 min.
The Army needs heavy lift, we are not (in the forseable future) going to be forcing ourselves ashore so we buy 4 Ro Ros? or
We decide that Canada we return to her place as the becon of all things good and mulitcultural (sarcasm) and we will defend human rights around the world, soooooo.
We get 2 or 3 Ocean Class LHD's and train the Navy, Army and Airforce in Amphibious ops. The Airforce gets Chinooks, Apache's and Harriers (until the JSF comes on line), the Navy gets some real landing craft and the Army gets a light and leathal.

Will that happen?

Nope.