Will the C17s Make it to the Ramp?

[tomahawk6]

I saw that 429 Squadron merged with 436 Squadron so perhaps the powers that be will bring back 429 ?

 

[eurowing]

Hangar space is not really a huge issue for now.  The Herc fleet is not fully hangared nor was the Boeing.  Not being in Trenton right now, I'll even hazard a guess that the Airbus would only have one hangar spot.  Hangars are for maintenance, but yes it nice to put ac to bed warm and dry.

 

[Haletown]

Globesmasher

Interesting writeup. However, in your article you use a couple of abbreviations and phrases that I'm not familiar with, e.g. "CDS drop," "HE," and "HUMRO airdrops." You also mention "LIRCM;" IRCM I'm guessing means Infrared Countermeasures, but what does the "L" stand for? Laser?  ???

You have to pardon my ignorance as my background is in the fighter world. 

Sorry, a quick edit as I got your handle wrong. My apologies.

HUMRO  = Humanitarian Relief Operations

LIRCM  =  Large aircraft Infrared Countermeasures

IRCM =  Infrared Countermeasures

CDS  =  Container Delivery System (?)

HE = Heavy Equipment (?)

 

[kj_gully]

Ohhhh. i for one thought the DZ was covered in bomb craters (High Explosives) Not nearly as hard core now!

:warstory:

 

[observor 69]

Did everyone see Dennis Coderre has already confirmed if they become the next government, they will cancel the program.

He apparently said so in an interview yesterday....

Good Lord I hate the Liberal Party.


Matthew.   :threat:

What he said was it was the wrong decision. Single sourcing, could have leased, blah blah blah. Supposedly he is saying this to win points in Quebec which is angry that they didn't get 60% of the matching dollars.

 

[Haletown]

Ohhhh. i for one thought the DZ was covered in bomb craters (High Explosives) Not nearly as hard core now!

:warstory:

which makes me wonder if a C17 could deliver a couple of MOAB's ??

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/moab.htm

The bomb craters wouldn't be numerous, but they would be big

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I believe the MOAB was first designed to "create" drop zones by exploding close to the ground and leveling obstructions, so the craters would not be that big.

 

[GAP]

I believe the MOAB was first designed to "create" drop zones by exploding close to the ground and leveling obstructions, so the craters would not be that big.

Called a daisy cutter....above ground explosion that did a beautiful job of clearing a space for an LZ...from the air, it looked like a daisy.

 

[Haletown]

I believe the MOAB was first designed to "create" drop zones by exploding close to the ground and leveling obstructions, so the craters would not be that big.

scroll to the bottom of that  link http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/moab.htm


. . .  genesis was the Vietnam era daisy cutter, but MOAB is a different dog.  Barnes Wallis would be a happy Grandfather if he was still with us.

 

[maniac779]

Boeing Forced to Give 80% of Regional Economic Benefits to Paradise After Allah Secures Contract for CF

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. That is awesome.

 

[JackD]

By the way, can the C-17 - (i wonder what the Cdn identity will be?) be used for the box-top runs for Alert? it surely would eliminate alot of flights....

 

[Globesmasher]

By the way, ......the C-17 - (i wonder what the Cdn identity will be?)

The CAS and DAR have decided that it will be called:
CC-177
Globemaster lll [No French equivalent has been provided]
Tail numbers will be:  701, 702, 703 and 704

.... can the C-17 be used for the box-top runs for Alert? it surely would eliminate alot of flights....

I have been asked to staff this several times.

The C-17 CAN operate onto the 5000' x 150' packed gravel and snow runway.  It CAN fly in True, Mag or Grid and it can fly the NDB or the TACAN approach to get into Alert.  The REAL question remains, and this is still yet to be answered by the logistics and engineering community .....

Can Alert handle the C-17?

By this I mean, is the runway strong enough to support 477,000 lbs landing on it and then taxiing and turning around?

I've been told repeatedly ...... "It's built on bedrock and frozen solid" ..... but that is not a good answer.  However, if you're willing to sign your name to the bottom of that "qualitative" and "subjective" engineering disposition .... and take responsibility and accept liability in case the aircraft sinks ... then I will happily fly into Alert.  Once someone tells me how strong the runway is (how much weight it can bear) I can then calculate how heavy I can land, how much cargo I can bring in and how much fuel I can offload.

In a C-130 at 130,000 lbs (in the late '90s) I sunk once in Alert in the summer in the turn around area, and I sunk once in Eureka in the winter about a third of the way down the runway and tore the right main landing gear door off.  Try to explain the "I thought it was supposed to be frozen .." to the boss.

Also, is there enough MHE (Material Handling Equipment) to off-load 18 pallets and other cargo in a reasonable time?  Right now there are no K-loaders in Alert - just a small fork lift that would not really be adequate.

 

[Globesmasher]

which makes me wonder if a C17 could deliver a couple of MOAB's ??

Yes it can.

The C-17 (and the C-130s) can both drop the MOAB (GBU-43) and also the Daisy Cutter (BLU-82).  The Daisy Cutter is smaller than the MOAB and weighs in at only about 15,000 lbs of high explosive.

They are both rigged to HE xetraction platforms and are dropped using the HE airdrop checklists ... pretty easy really.

The USAF kept an airdrop aircrew on alert all the time back in 2002 so that they could go out and drop any of these as required.  I never got called but I sat for days in the "alert posture" and hoped I would be able to drop one on the Whaleback to support the guys on the ground ... never happened though.

 

[Globesmasher]

I'm guessing these aircraft will be getting their own squadron, and if the Air Force sticks with tradition, I suspect they'll be pulling an old set of squadron colours out from under glass and standing an old unit back up.

Any idea which one?

The unit will be stood up eventually as a separate Squadron although nobody knows which one yet.  Right now, as an interim measure, the C-17 unit will be part of a "flight" of 437 Sqn in Trenton.  The creation of the crews to bring the C-17 on-line has been dictated to us as a PY-neutral project - meaning that no new positions or line numbers can be created ... so as guys get posted from their old unit, they bring their line/position number with them to the gaining unit and there is no backfill or replacement for them at their old, losing unit.  As such, there is no Sqn Commander "position" yet (no CWO SWO position either) and no warm body available.

I do not know how long the "interim 437 solution" will last for - nobody has told me.  And I am not sure what the new Sqn will be ... although everybody is talking about standing up 429 Sqn again .... we'll see.

 

[Globesmasher]

"CDS drop," "HE," and "HUMRO airdrops." You also mention "LIRCM;" IRCM I'm guessing means Infrared Countermeasures, but what does the "L" stand for? Laser?  ???

Haletown nailed it.  Good response.

Unclassified, open source material follows ......

The LAIRCM is really cool .... Large Aircraft Infra Red Counter Measures.  But you were close with the L - it is infact a laser.  The "Nemesis" LAIRCM system as produced by Northrup Grumman, comes with a series of detectors and 3 slewable turrets on the aircraft.  When the kit detects an incoming missile it uses jam codes stored in its system and uses the laser to jam and burn the heck out of the seeker head.  It is a very interesting system and is the sort of thing that civilian airlines are thinking about employing .... it is "pilot proof" ... switch on and forget about it.

Normally the kit is called DIRCM for Directed IRCM .... the L is simply for large.

When we combine this IRCM with a Missile Approach Warning System (MWS) and a Counter Measures Dispensing System (CMDS) capable of deploying IR counter measures (flares) then we have a very robust defensive system with layers for redundancy.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

MODS move if needed.

from cbc.ca

Cargo plane deal 'a new era' for military: O'Connor
Last Updated: Friday, February 2, 2007 | 2:23 PM ET
CBC News
The federal government announced a $3.4-billion deal with Boeing on Friday to buy four heavy-lift military cargo planes.

In June, the government set aside the funds for Boeing's C-17 Globemaster III transport planes, which can lift 76 tonnes and are capable of carrying any piece of equipment in Canada's military inventory, including tanks and armoured vehicles.

The C-17 Globemaster III transport plane can carry any piece of equipment in Canada's military inventory, including tanks and armoured vehicles.
(CBC) Gen. Rick Hillier, Canada's chief of defence staff, joined Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor, Industry Minister Maxime Bernier and Public Works Minister Michael Fortier for the announcement at National Defence headquarters.

"This marks a beginning of a new era for Canada's Armed Forces," O'Connor said, citing the planes' flexibility for a range of missions.

"We will be faster and better in reaching out" to communities in need of emergency aid, as well as replenishing soldiers in the field, he added.

While the planes will be built in the U.S., the federal deal hinges on Boeing pledging to spend an amount equal to the purchase price on projects in Canada. The arrangement pitted Manitoba and Quebec against each other to obtain a large share of the benefits.

The first of the four planes will be delivered by the end of August, O'Connor said.

The deal was rumoured to have been delayed by almost two months over disputes involving the spinoff subcontracts, known as industrial regional benefits or IRBs.

Quebec lobbied fiercely to get a majority of the industrial benefits the province argued it deserved, but is expected to get only about 30 per cent of the value of the contract in spinoffs.

The Conservatives promised in the last election campaign that they would buy the unique aircraft for the Canadian military so it could transport its own heavy equipment around the world.

The Liberals said the decision to buy the planes was made without a full tendering process, and Canada's Armed Forces could continue to lease or borrow transport planes from allies such as the United States or other NATO countries.

 

[Globesmasher]

Globemasher:  Do you know when the infrastructure (ie: hangars) will be up and running in Trenton?  In the mean time, where will the C-17s be parked?

Max

Max:

8 Wing will be hard pressed to be ready for August and October, although the engineers are working really hard to make it happen.  Concrete will be poured as soon as the weather warms up.  In the mean time the aircraft will be parked over by the east end of the ramp near the AMU, round near the A and B taxiways.  The long term plan is to have the heavy transports (C-17 and Airbus) on the east side and the C-130s and the SAR guys on the central and west side.

The infrastructure bill to accommodate the C-17, the C-130J when it arrives and FWSAR will be huge ... and coupled with the fact that JTF is also planning to move to YTR as well ..... the long term plan is quite enormous and the "blue print" for the plan is very aggressive.  It will take time ... years in fact.

For August the Wing will focus on the firehall and fire response, fuel, cargo handlinginfrastructure and also ramp parking space (east side) as the priorities.

Should be very interesting.

 

[Globesmasher]

Sorry for all the posts and responses.

I'm just trying to answer all the questions ......

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Sorry for all the posts and responses.

I'm just trying to answer all the questions ......

I'm enjoying your knowledgable posts...don't apologise...thanks you are a wealth of info to this old Navy Padre.  ;D

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Hey np Globe you seem to be the SME on the C-17.  :cheers: