Women in U.S. infantry (USMC, Rangers, etc. - merged)

[Scoobie Newbie]

I'd suggest there are sexiest views in our own family with women and combat arms until they prove themselves.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'd suggest their are sexiest views in our own family with women and combat arms until they prove themselves.

I agree. And even after they prove themselves they're "still a chick" by many.  The peer review is going to nail a lot of them.

 

[cupper]

Combat support MOS means that you are not on the front lines but still close enough that you could come under fire.

http://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/browse-career-and-job-categories/combat.html

Yeah, but that covers a lot of territory behind the front line that can be exposed to enemy fire, both direct and more specifically indirect. I just find it surprising that they are using that strict a definition of "combat".

 

[daftandbarmy]

Follow-up to the article posted above: it appears they've made their selections, not for Ranger School itself, but for "advisers" to stay on at Ft. Benning while women potentially attempt the course.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

From the Army Times (http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2014/11/17/women-selected-ranger-course/19174007/)

31 women chosen for Ranger Course assessment

More than 30 women have been selected for a potential Ranger Course Assessment next spring, Fort Benning announced.

The Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade chose 20 NCOs and 11 officers as observers and advisers for the assessment, according to a Facebook post on Monday by the Maneuver Center of Excellence at the post in Georgia.

The female soldiers were put through a week of training to acclimate them to the rigorous physical and mental challenges for soldiers earning the Ranger tab.

If the assessment takes place, both female and male soldiers would take part, and female soldiers would also be observers and advisers for the cadre leading the course.

By January, the decision will be made whether to conduct the assessment, officials said.

"I was very satisfied with both the quality and quantity of the volunteers we received," said Maj. Gen. Scott Miller, commanding general of the Maneuver Center of Excellence, in the Facebook post. "Their performance and professionalism over the course of the week was extraordinary. This group did very well for what was a very physically challenging week for any Soldier."

​

The Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade, which runs Ranger school, has been preparing for the possible integrated course, said the brigade's commander, Col. David Fivecoat, in a September interview with Army Times.

Possible changes include altering barracks, latrines and showers to accommodate female students, and looking at medical pre-screening and different requirements for females.He said the observer/advisers will serve as extra eyes and ears and as a sounding board for the Ranger instructors, but they will not evaluate or grade Ranger school students.

"We thought it would be helpful to bring women into the course prior to the arrival of the first women students" to ease "isolation" issues or concerns among female students, Fivecoat said, to give them "an opportunity to succeed."

The Ranger Course is 62 days in three phases: the Benning Phase, the mountain phase in Dahlonega, Georgia, and the swamp/jungle phase at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida.

During each phase Ranger students must receive a "passing grade" in one leadership position during a patrol, a positive peer review and no more than three major negative spot reports. In addition, they must successfully complete the Ranger Physical Assessment, a 12-mile road march, a land navigation course and the Combat Water Survival Assessment.

I recall that, way back in the 70s/80s, they tried a similar assessment program for female combat arms Officers at CTC.

No idea how that panned out... oh, wait, I guess it worked as we now have females in the infantry, armour and artillery.

 

[CougarKing]

At least they get another chance since they were recycled to repeat a course:

Military.com

Female Soldiers Fail to Pass Phase One of Army Ranger School

Military.com

May 08, 2015 | by Matthew Cox
All eight female soldiers participating in the first co-ed class of U.S. Army Ranger School failed to advance to the second phase of the grueling infantry course.
On the male side, 115 male students met the requirement to begin the Mountain Phase of Ranger School in Dahlonega, Ga., on Saturday, May 9, according to a Fort Benning press release.

The eight female candidates, along with 101 male candidates, will be recycled to repeat the Darby Phase of Ranger School.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[dangerboy]

I feel sorry for these women, having every aspect of their progress reported on the media.  When you are on course you just want to do your best and having that extra pressure of your even movie broadcast to the world has got to be stressful.

 

[tomahawk6]

The female students volunteered to be there.If they get tired of the bs they can quit and go back to their unit.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The female students volunteered to be there.If they get tired of the bs they can quit and go back to their unit.

And they'll probably have to walk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K92F7wmB1o

 

[tomahawk6]

The background on that story was the 12 mile road march required for the Expert Medical Badge.The same is required for the Expert Infantry Badge of which I am a proud recipient.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I feel sorry for these women, having every aspect of their progress reported on the media.  When you are on course you just want to do your best and having that extra pressure of your even movie broadcast to the world has got to be stressful.

While I agree with you, it is the price that pioneers in any field of endeavor face.  Creating REAL change often often involves REAL pain.

 

[MilEME09]

I think all these attempts are doomed to fail for two reasons,

1. There is a very predominant sexist culture when it comes to women serving in combat trades in the US military.
2. All these test case courses have less then a dozen women, using the ranger school as an example 101 men also failed to pass. If you grabbed the same test amount of men and woman and ran a course how would the results pan out i wonder?

 

[tomahawk6]

Sexist culture in the US military ? Do tell please.

 

[ballz]

I personally believe we have a discipline problem with fraternization in the Canadian Army.  I know of a number of people, non-commissioned and officers who have engaged in behavior that would meet the criteria of fraternization.  Including officer-NCM relationships.  In no cases have I seen the CoC pursue charges.  Now we can say that this is a leadership issue but it is also a direct result of women being integrated, or of women being integrated without the proper culture being put in place. The question is, is it possible to attain the culture, and what harm does fraternization have on our units?

So a weak CoC is your argument to support sexist policies?  :facepalm: Perhaps, in that case, men aren't as awesome as some of us think we are.

I have seen a Warrant Officer put his feet on the desk and go to sleep on a Monday morning prior to deploying to the field for a week. The CoC (me) pursued remedial measures and the same weakness in the CoC above me stopped it from happening. If we have disciplinary problems, its not because of women being in the ranks, it is because of weak leadership who have the balls to hold a Corporal accountable but not a WO. Those problems are rampant in rifles companies that don't have a single woman in the ORBAT.

 

[MilEME09]

Sexist culture in the US military ? Do tell please.

My personal experience with members of the US military have been for the vast majority been one of their views being that women do not belong in trades such as the infantry. Mind you i'm sure you'll find it in the CF somewhere but i've seen it more voiced by US members.

 

[cupper]

And as we all found out earlier this month, those attitudes are rampant within the CF, so much so that it creates a toxic workplace. :

 

[vonGarvin]

And as we all found out earlier this month, those attitudes are rampant within the CF, so much so that it creates a toxic workplace. :

My Sarcasmo-meter is on the fritz.  Please tell me that you're being sarcastic...

 

[George Wallace]

My Sarcasmo-meter is on the fritz.  Please tell me that you're being sarcastic...

Think he was referring back to this:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/114851/post-1305469.html#msg1305469

 

[cupper]

My Sarcasmo-meter is on the fritz.  Please tell me that you're being sarcastic...

Think he was referring back to this:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/114851/post-1305469.html#msg1305469

Yep to both.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Marine Commander’s Firing Stirs Debate on Integration of Women in Corps

ALEXANDRIA, Va. — When Lt. Col. Kate Germano took command of the Marine Corps’ all-women boot camp, the failure rate of female recruits at the rifle range was about three times higher than that of their male counterparts, and she said there was no plan to try to improve it. “The thinking was girls can’t shoot, so why bother,” she said in an interview.

So she worked with trainers to give women better skills instruction, and soon passing rates soared, according to Marine Corps records. In June, 95 percent of women passed initial rifle qualification, equaling the rate for men. Colonel Germano made similar gains in strength tests and retention — though scores on written tests went down — and began advocating better training and resources for female recruits.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/13/us/marine-commanders-firing-stirs-debate-on-integration-of-women-in-corps.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

 

[PMedMoe]

“This whole thing started when her Marines — her female Marines — were telling us they were being mistreated,” said Col. Jeffrey Fultz, the chief of staff for Parris Island. “She was telling them their male counterparts will never respect them if they don’t get good physical scores. You just don’t do that.”

Why not?  Maybe not in quite those words.

I recall having to do almost everything better than our male counterparts in basic training.  Was it so they would respect us?  No, it was so that the male instructors would not be able to find fault with us.  At least, that was my impression.


Did I feel "mistreated"?  No one bit.  We all knew what was going on and it didn't bother us.

Maybe some of those female Marines need to grow thicker skin.  :