Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

[KevinB]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

For those who are not clear on what bullets do 

 

[AlphaCharlie]

404 Error!! Page Cannot Be Found.

 

[Scott]

Don't bullets hurt?

 

[Armymedic]

I like these paras:

With the exceptions of hits to the brain or upper spinal cord, the concept of reliable and reproducible immediate incapacitation of the human target by gunshot wounds to the torso is a myth. The human target is a complex and durable one. A wide variety of psychological, physical, and physiological factors exist, all of them pertinent to the probability of incapacitation. However, except for the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed, none of the factors are within the control of the law enforcement officer.

Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed.

And hence where I come in.... ;D

Good site Kevin, thanks.

 

[Armymedic]

Don't bullets hurt?

Sometimes, no...

Or the one who is simply unaware of having been shot by virtue of alcohol, adrenaline, narcotics, or the simple fact that in most cases of grievous injury the body suppresses pain for a period of time. Lacking pain, there may be no physiological effect of being shot that can make one aware of the wound. Thus the real problem: if such an individual is threatening one's life, how best to compel him to stop by shooting him?

 

[combat_medic]

My father is a police officer, and told me of a case where another police officer unloaded an entire mag of 40mm on a guy who was high on PCPs. The guy barely noticed and kept coming at him. The police officer had to reload and shoot him in the head just to stop him.

Good site KevinB!

 

[Scott]

Not long ago we had to restrain a guy on PCP, same thing, the guy was like a freight train. The cops tazered him and he didn't flinch. One of the members was telling us the same sort of story about a fella on PCP being shot and still going. Scary. The fella we had finally calmed down and got into the ambulance when we told him we were just there to take him to work at the Superstore!

 

[KevinB]

Armymedic - I hope you mean .40cal  ;D

The human body typical gives up from beign shot prior to itself shutting down - many psychological factors affect the reaction to being shot.

There is a documented case from Somalia of a local takign a 40mm HE roudn that severed his body at the waist - and he was dragging himself toward an AK...

But IF the shots are CNS - they are goign down no matter what.

 

[MG34]

Well I can attest to the fact if you get shot,you don't feel it.I was hit in the leg in Sarejevo 1992,felt the impact only,no pain.I was able to run to cover and look for where the shot came from,no problem adrenaline is a wonderful thing,until it goes away.People react differently when shot,some fight,flee or fall down.There is a school of thought that indicates that people are conditioned to fall to the ground when hit in a non vital area ie not in the CNS.This conditioning comes from the fact when we see someone get shot on TV or in movies they drop to the ground,so if you are hit you have to fall . I am not saying I agree or disagree with it myself but it does make a good point.Simple physics tells you that a bullet cannot knock you over despite what is the common belief as most of the bullet's energy is turned to heat in the barrel or friction in the air.Besides the impact can be no greater than the recoil generated,if a bullet could knock you down then it would also knock the firer down.So why do people drop when hit in a non vital area,if not from the impact or body shutting down as in a CNS hit any theories??

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Hey is that pensionable?

That Somalia may have been hoped up on kot(sp).

 

[KevinB]

khat


Perhaps but similar incidents have occured in Vietnam etc.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Wasen't sure on the spelling.

 

[the 48th regulator]

I agree on the pain factor, i was shot 7 times in the upper body and head.   The only pain I felt was when my buddy tried to steady me and he touched my head.   I had a round lodged in the temple and it hurt like heck, even when I touched it.   But it felt like I had a big goose egg of of a bump, and the pain felt the same.


My other wounds I didn't even feel, in fact I started to feel real cold (shock setting in i guess) more than I felt the pain of being wounded.

Dileas
john tescione

 

[Armymedic]

I would also imagine that it also depends what structures are stuck and damaged by the projectiles.

While soft tissue (muscle) may absorb kenietic engery without knock the reciever over, more solid stuctures as bone or solid organs like your liver would hurt a whole bunch more, and give a better transfer of energy to the body.

 

[HollywoodHitman]

There are reasons why much of the training is geared towards 2 to the chest and one to the head these days. Also techniques to drop people who could or are wearing body armour. The .40 cal is a well tested and documented round for stopping power as well as killing power too. The 9mm however is a cheaper round to manufacture I believe. At the end of the day, sometimes wounding someone is all you want to do. When people live after being hit with multiple rounds and whatnot, it's invariably luck. Doesn't matter how you survive, just that you DO survive. Prevention and training are worth a pound of cure.........

 

[MG34]

There are reasons why much of the training is geared towards 2 to the chest and one to the head these days. Also techniques to drop people who could or are wearing body armour. The .40 cal is a well tested and documented round for stopping power as well as killing power too. The 9mm however is a cheaper round to manufacture I believe. At the end of the day, sometimes wounding someone is all you want to do. When people live after being hit with multiple rounds and whatnot, it's invariably luck. Doesn't matter how you survive, just that you DO survive. Prevention and training are worth a pound of cure.........

What training is this?? The military teaches to shoot at center of mass with all weapons. Even a highly trained shooter has difficulty hitting a head sized target that is moving and while under stress. Police agancies do not train this way either,unless you are talking about an highly trained Hostage Rescue Unit (HRU) this level of training is a waste of ammunition and time.
The .40cal has drawn much criticisim for not being an effective "man stopper  :",it is not much of an improvement over the 9mm round and is less effective at penetrating both soft and hard cover than the 9mm.
There is no such thing as "stopping power","knock down power" or "killing power".Wether it is a 9mm or a .50cal unless you destroy major organs,the CNS or cause massive blood loss by proper shot placement you will not have the desired effects on your target.

 

[KevinB]

MG - actually we are starting (maybe the VP revolution  ;D) to do failure drills when doing pistol trg.

Pat Rogers has a really good article in one of the recent SWAT's about non standard reactions etc.

 

[the 48th regulator]

I would also imagine that it also depends what structures are stuck and damaged by the projectiles.

While soft tissue (muscle) may absorb kenietic engery without knock the reciever over, more solid stuctures as bone or solid organs like your liver would hurt a whole bunch more, and give a better transfer of energy to the body.

Four of the round hit my head (yep wooden head, wouldn't listen I is!)   Three of which penetrated the skull.   The only pain i feel is the headaches I get now.    

Then again much head injuries are reported to be very painless, as opposed to being hit in the the arm or leg.   I have heard that type of wound would hurt like a son of a gun. (hehe no pun intended)

tess

 

[KevinB]

One of our guys was hit in the foot last week - bullet went right through.  He was joking about it withing 5 min - said he never felt a thing.

 

[Parasoldier]

I took several shrapnel wounds to the body in Afghanistan.  They did not hurt at first, but felt a bit sore after I went into shock.  Thank heaven for good pain killers.  The most pain suffered was after surgeries to sew me back up.