Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[KevinB]

Rigger, should be a secondary skill for any jumper
1 year postings for Pte/Cpl, and a 2 year for JM qualified NCO’s

Honestly it’s not rocket science, MFP guys down here pack their own chutes, and while I think that’s a bridge to far for basic Para folks - it is a skill that should be held in Airborne units.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Rigger, should be a secondary skill for any jumper
1 year postings for Pte/Cpl, and a 2 year for JM qualified NCO’s

Honestly it’s not rocket science, MFP guys down here pack their own chutes, and while I think that’s a bridge to far for basic Para folks - it is a skill that should be held in Airborne units.

Not me!

 

[KevinB]

Not me!

Is that what you have a batman for?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Is that what you have a batman for?

Good heavens no...

... that chap's to have my bath drawn at the right temperature, and the G&T at the optimum mixture, don't y'know

 

[mariomike]

I can't understand why we don't have a massive program where we pay tuition at community colleges for mechanics and health care workers and cooks and so on to get trained in the fundamentals of their trade in exchange for terms of obligatory RegF or ResF service.

There are a few steps CAF health care workers must take for certain professions if their intent is to VR upon completion of their military obligation into municipal / regional service in Ontario.

1) The Ontario Paramedic Equivalency Process provides an opportunity for paramedics who obtained their training outside of Ontario, to determine if they have the knowledge and skills required to be eligible to work as a PCP in Ontario.

2 ) Upon successful completion of the Standard PCP Equivalency process you are eligible to apply to the MOH AEMCA examination.

3) Upon successful completion of the above examination, meet the qualifications required by Ontario Regulation 257/00 Part III 6-8.

4 ) If you meet the Regulation, follow the recruitment process of the municipality / region you are applying for:

1 ) Written evaluation.

2 ) Multiple Mini Interview ( MMI ).

3) Class F Driving evaluation.

4 ) Regional Base Hospital evaluation.

Documentation required to bring with you:

Class F driver's licence
AEMCA college diploma
Police Service Reference Consent Form
Successful Ottawa Paramedic Physical Abilities ( OPPAT ) test evaluation
MOHLTC Ambulance Service Identification Card (OASIS)
3-year uncertified driver's abstract
Medical Status Questionnaire for departmental medical examination
Criminal Record Check
International Trauma Life Support ( ITLS ) certificate
BLS/HCP CPR certificate
Driver's Abstract Waiver

 

[FJAG]

There are a few steps CAF health care workers must take for certain professions if their intent is to VR upon completion of their military obligation into municipal / regional service in Ontario.

1) The Ontario Paramedic Equivalency Process provides an opportunity for paramedics who obtained their training outside of Ontario, to determine if they have the knowledge and skills required to be eligible to work as a PCP in Ontario.

2 ) Upon successful completion of the Standard PCP Equivalency process you are eligible to apply to the MOH AEMCA examination.

3) Upon successful completion of the above examination, meet the qualifications required by Ontario Regulation 257/00 Part III 6-8.

4 ) If you meet the Regulation, follow the recruitment process of the municipality / region you are applying for:

1 ) Written evaluation.

2 ) Multiple Mini Interview ( MMI ).

3) Class F Driving evaluation.

4 ) Regional Base Hospital evaluation.

Documentation required to bring with you:

Class F driver's licence
AEMCA college diploma
Police Service Reference Consent Form
Successful Ottawa Paramedic Physical Abilities ( OPPAT ) test evaluation
MOHLTC Ambulance Service Identification Card (OASIS)
3-year uncertified driver's abstract
Medical Status Questionnaire for departmental medical examination
Criminal Record Check
International Trauma Life Support ( ITLS ) certificate
BLS/HCP CPR certificate
Driver's Abstract Waiver

Understood, but your looking at it from the wrong direction. I'm not here to facilitate some current RegF medic to becoming a civilian paramedic.

I'm looking at the front end. To take some high school kid who wants to become a civilian paramedic (for example) and who also has an interest in the military and a) help him get the education he needs to become a civilian paramedic in the region where he lives, b) use that education as a spring board to provide him with additional military education (and income) in the summer to also have the additional skills which he needs to have to be a military medic or nurse (or whatever trade), c) let him serve as a reservist x years where he has his full-time job as a civilian paramedic in his home town and is also available to be called up on military service in an emergency.

My intent isn't to provide a post military career for a RegF medic; I'm trying to build the base for a viable ResF medical trade (amongst others).

 

[mariomike]

To take some high school kid who wants to become a civilian paramedic (for example) and who also has an interest in the military and a) help him get the education he needs to become a civilian paramedic in the region where he lives, b) use that education as a spring board to provide him with additional military education (and income) in the summer to also have the additional skills which he needs to have to be a military medic or nurse (or whatever trade), c) let him serve as a reservist x years where he has his full-time job as a civilian paramedic in his home town and is also available to be called up on military service in an emergency.

My intent isn't to provide a post military career for a RegF medic; I'm trying to build the base for a viable ResF medical trade (amongst others).

Understood. But,

1) There would have to be a war on.

Military Leave
24.09 (a) Leave of absence shall be granted to employees to serve in the Armed Forces during hostilities or during a time of war as declared by the Government of Canada. Seniority will accumulate during such leave.

2) As far as weekend and summer training goes,

R.S.O. 1990, CHAPTER A.19
Holding out
20.0.1
No person other than a paramedic acting in the course of or in relation to his or her duties as a paramedic for an ambulance service shall hold himself or herself out as a paramedic. 2017, c.25, Sched. 1, s, 6.

IN ALL INSTANCES WHILE OFF DUTY A PARAMEDIC MAY NOT PERFORM CONTROLLED ACTS AND WILL HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO UTILIZE THEIR ADVANCED LIFE SUPPORT SKILLS OR EQUIPMENT.

 

[KevinB]

IN ALL INSTANCES WHILE OFF DUTY A PARAMEDIC MAY NOT PERFORM CONTROLLED ACTS AND WILL HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO UTILIZE THEIR ADVANCED LIFE SUPPORT SKILLS OR EQUIPMENT.

That is just ridiculous, I understand duty want to reduce liability but honestly if I was injured and a paramedic came around off duty, I'd want them to do their damnedness to save me, or others, and I'd sue the Association or Union whatever that made that rule.

 

[mariomike]

That is just ridiculous, I understand duty want to reduce liability but honestly if I was injured and a paramedic came around off duty, I'd want them to do their damnedness to save me, or others, and I'd sue the Association or Union whatever that made that rule.

It's not the union.

It's the Government of Ontario.

https://tbrhsc.net/wp-content/base-hospital/policies/MC-400.pdf

On April 1, 2020 changes to Ontario's Ambulance Act came into force restricting use of the title "Paramedic" to individuals while on-duty with a municipal ambulance service.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Have the Military refer to them as "Combat Medics" and allow that a current licence in any province is equivalent to X in the military. They be practising their trade under the DND and so not subject to Provincial rules at that time.

 

[KevinB]

It's not the union.

It's the Government of Ontario.

https://tbrhsc.net/wp-content/base-hospital/policies/MC-400.pdf

Stupid Government, go figure, but I'd sue them then...

 

[mariomike]

Stupid Government, go figure, but I'd sue them then...

We didn't make the rules. Just played the game.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Have the Military refer to them as "Combat Medics" and allow that a current licence in any province is equivalent to X in the military. They be practising their trade under the DND and so not subject to Provincial rules at that time.

Or just 'Good Samaritans'...


Good Samaritan laws offer legal protection to people who give reasonable assistance to those who are, or whom they believe to be injured, ill, in peril,[citation needed] or otherwise incapacitated.[1] The protection is intended to reduce bystanders' hesitation to assist, for fear of being sued or prosecuted for unintentional injury or wrongful death. An example of such a law in common-law areas of Canada: a Good Samaritan doctrine is a legal principle that prevents a rescuer who has voluntarily helped a victim in distress from being successfully sued for wrongdoing. Its purpose is to keep people from being reluctant to help a stranger in need for fear of legal repercussions should they make some mistake in treatment.[2] By contrast, a duty to rescue law requires people to offer assistance and holds those who fail to do so liable.

Good Samaritan law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[KevinB]

Or just 'Good Samaritans'...


Good Samaritan laws offer legal protection to people who give reasonable assistance to those who are, or whom they believe to be injured, ill, in peril,[citation needed] or otherwise incapacitated.[1] The protection is intended to reduce bystanders' hesitation to assist, for fear of being sued or prosecuted for unintentional injury or wrongful death. An example of such a law in common-law areas of Canada: a Good Samaritan doctrine is a legal principle that prevents a rescuer who has voluntarily helped a victim in distress from being successfully sued for wrongdoing. Its purpose is to keep people from being reluctant to help a stranger in need for fear of legal repercussions should they make some mistake in treatment.[2] By contrast, a duty to rescue law requires people to offer assistance and holds those who fail to do so liable.

Good Samaritan law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

IIRC Good Samaritan only covers First Aid aspects, not deeper medical coverage by a professional, - even at the immediate scene --

 

[mariomike]

Nothing says you can't do First Aid and CPR / AED. I could call 9-1-1 with the best of them.

The paramedic must be on duty as an employee of a licensed ambulance service when providing any advanced life support care to any patient within Ontario to be covered by their respective Base Hospital Program Medical Director’s License.

I was a MSE Op. I consider myself a "Good Samaritan" when off-duty. Carry a First Aid kit in my car.

But, if an off-duty Ontario paramedic was considering working a part-time gig for another employer , I would re-read the Act and Base Hospital Directive, before taking advice on the internet.

I think they are pretty clear on the subject.

 

[FJAG]

Understood. But,

1) There would have to be a war on.


2) As far as weekend and summer training goes,

Provincial law does not trump federal law when the federal law operates within its constitutional authority.

The Federal government has responsibility for all things military. The conflict of laws issue here is that just because a paramedic has been licenced to practice within the province under certain constraints, that law has less, if any, power when a military medic (who incidentally happens to be a paramedic) is practicing military medical procedures taught to him and in accordance with military medical practices while on military service.

The provision respecting "holding out" has no relevance because as a military medic, they are not holding themselves out as a provincially licenced "paramedic". They are holding themselves out as a military medic under the DND authority to qualify and utilize people as such.

I don't know where this comes from:

IN ALL INSTANCES WHILE OFF DUTY A PARAMEDIC MAY NOT PERFORM CONTROLLED ACTS AND WILL HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO UTILIZE THEIR ADVANCED LIFE SUPPORT SKILLS OR EQUIPMENT.

It's not in the statute that I can see. If its an employer rule, I'd like to see them in court defending the firing of a person who has provided emergency on site care. It's contrary to decent humanity.

Ontario does have a Good Samaritan Act and from what I can tell, section 2(2)(b) would protect paramedics like any other citizen providing on-site care except in cases of gross negligence.

Law Document English View

Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.

www.ontario.ca

 

[dapaterson]

Sidebar: this also highlights the regulatory problem of doctors, dentists, pharmacists, nurses and lawyers in the CAF - their licensure is entirely provincial, meaning professional sanction is outside the control of the CAF.

 

[mariomike]

I don't know where this comes from:

https://tbrhsc.net/wp-content/base-hospital/policies/MC-400.pdf

 

[FJAG]

https://tbrhsc.net/wp-content/base-hospital/policies/MC-400.pdf

Ah. Some local hospital's lawyer's way of covering their ass.

Can you use your normal, every day life support skills and a band-aid though since it only limits "advanced" skills and "controlled" acts?

I'm sorry to be so flippant. It reminds me when I had to write bullcrap like this for clients because they wanted to be sure that they'd never be sued regardless of how dumb their demands were and how it effected their employees.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I don't know where this comes from:

IN ALL INSTANCES WHILE OFF DUTY A PARAMEDIC MAY NOT PERFORM CONTROLLED ACTS AND WILL HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO UTILIZE THEIR ADVANCED LIFE SUPPORT SKILLS OR EQUIPMENT.

It's not in the statute that I can see. If its an employer rule, I'd like to see them in court defending the firing of a person who has provided emergency on site care. It's contrary to decent humanity.

Ontario does have a Good Samaritan Act and from what I can tell, section 2(2)(b) would protect paramedics like any other citizen providing on-site care except in cases of gross negligence.

While @mariomike used an SOP from a "base hospital" as reference to support his point, the "employer rule" stems from Regulations to the Ambulance Act.

e-Laws | Ontario.ca

www.ontario.ca

It's been decades since I've had occasion to pay any attention to Ontario's regulations, but there are some similarities in other provinces' regulations. It's not specifically that paramedics can't provide 'care' except when functioning on-duty as part of their service, it is that they are restricted from performing "controlled acts" unless under the license of a medical director, i.e., a physician. Though paramedics may be highly trained and required to maintain proof of competency, they usually (there may be jurisdictions that are an exception) are not permitted to 'independently' perform controlled acts. They do so under delegation from another health professional, specifically a doctor functioning as medical director of an ambulance service, whose legislated scope of practice does permit delegation of controlled acts to others.

If you look at the schedules of controlled acts in Reg 257/00, with one or two exceptions, they require drugs or equipment that far exceed what would be found in a well stocked first aid kit. There may be the odd paramedic out there who might cache some of those items about them in the hope of coming upon an off-duty emergency situation, but (personal opinion) I would consider them cowboys who would be just as likely to overstep their bounds (and skills) on the job. If you take away those drugs and equipment, what they could render is "first aid"; perfectly acceptable assistance from anyone helping others in an emergency.