Hybrid Electric Vehicles

[Colin Parkinson]

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[SeaKingTacco]

Yeah, that looks better than an ICE car…

 

[Good2Golf]

Yeah, that looks better than an ICE car…

The ship didn’t…and it looked like the thing still had some effort in it even when dumped into the bin. May be a tomayto-tomahto thing, but EV’s have the potential energy equivalent of not only a fuel tank, but a molecularly-matched amount of oxidizer self-contained in the vehicle…ie, once it’s going it’s going (unless sufficiently quenched to drop the temperature). Installed FF systems aboard will do little for EV, whereas they may help in cases of ICE vehs in transit.

 

[Kirkhill]

You could always ship the batteries separately. 200,000 tonnes of lithium ion batteries in one hull shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Good2Golf]

You could always ship the batteries separately. 200,000 tonnes of lithium ion batteries in one hull shouldn't be a problem.

Or use AAs…

 

[Kirkhill]

Uninsurable?

Electric cars risk becoming effectively uninsurable as analysts struggle to put a price on battery repairs, the researcher for the car insurance industry has said.

Jonathan Hewett, chief executive of Thatcham Research, the motor insurers’ automotive research centre, said a lack of “insight and understanding” about the cost of repairing damaged electric car batteries was pushing up premiums and resulting in some providers declining to provide cover altogether.

Electric cars can be particularly expensive to repair, costing around a quarter more to fix on average than a petrol or diesel vehicle. Experts have previously warned electric vehicles are being written off after minor bumps because of the cost and complexity of fixing their batteries.

Mr Hewett said: “The challenge is that we have no way of understanding whether the battery has been compromised or damaged in any way.

“The threat of thermal runaway means that a catastrophic fire can take place if the cells of the battery have been damaged in a collision.

“What we’re struggling to understand at the moment is how we approach that diagnostic technique.

“It’s like a doctor trying to understand what’s wrong with you without any notes or an X-ray.”

Electric cars risk becoming uninsurable

Difficulty pricing battery repairs forcing insurers to refuse cover

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I been saying this all along, the insurance companies will dictate the viability of EV's.

 

[YZT580]

You could always ship the batteries separately. 200,000 tonnes of lithium ion batteries in one hull shouldn't be a problem.

so who will pay the insurance on the hull carrying the batteries?

 

[Kirkhill]

so who will pay the insurance on the hull carrying the batteries?

Self-insured?

 

[Quirky]

This is the only way I'd even consider purchasing an EV:

https://www.business-standard.com/industry/auto/1-200-km-range-10-min-charge-toyota-near-solid-state-battery-breakthrough-123102300252_1.html

The automaker recently said it has reached a breakthrough that could halve the cost and size of these batteries. If successful, Toyota said that solid-state batteries will double the range of EVs up to 1,200 km. The charging time will be 10 minutes or less.

10 minutes or less for up to 1200km range, likely a bit less in the winter, is much more practical for Canadians.

 

[GR66]

This is the only way I'd even consider purchasing an EV:

https://www.business-standard.com/industry/auto/1-200-km-range-10-min-charge-toyota-near-solid-state-battery-breakthrough-123102300252_1.html

10 minutes or less for up to 1200km range, likely a bit less in the winter, is much more practical for Canadians.

Solid state batteries in a Japanese submarine for Canada?

 

[KJK]

This is the only way I'd even consider purchasing an EV:

https://www.business-standard.com/industry/auto/1-200-km-range-10-min-charge-toyota-near-solid-state-battery-breakthrough-123102300252_1.html

10 minutes or less for up to 1200km range, likely a bit less in the winter, is much more practical for Canadians.

There are a few battery manufacturers working on this. The range in good and the charging time is good but........ what they don't mention is current in rush and battery life. They are going to need a huge charging cable and massive contactors to handle that much current without melting. So far the most of the solid state batteries I have heard about have a life expectancy of around 300 charges which is only a year or two of use before they are no good.

Still quite a ways to go I think.

 

[YZT580]

There are a few battery manufacturers working on this. The range in good and the charging time is good but........ what they don't mention is current in rush and battery life. They are going to need a huge charging cable and massive contactors to handle that much current without melting. So far the most of the solid state batteries I have heard about have a life expectancy of around 300 charges which is only a year or two of use before they are no good.

Still quite a ways to go I think.

playing devil's advocate for a minute, let's assume they overcome the hurdles and go into production. Light years ahead of Lithium. What happens to our 35 billion dollar battery plants? If they can't be changed over it'll be ac vs dc electric generation with us owning the rights to the dc.

 

[KJK]

playing devil's advocate for a minute, let's assume they overcome the hurdles and go into production. Light years ahead of Lithium. What happens to our 35 billion dollar battery plants? If they can't be changed over it'll be ac vs dc electric generation with us owning the rights to the dc.

It is my humble opinion that those plants will likely never open or only produce a few batteries that no one wants and close. Think Bricklin SV-1. The only manufacturer that can currently sell any volume of electric cars is Tesla and that only after they have cut the price multiple times in the last year. People don't want them and if they don't buy them those plants won't be needed.

I was listening to a podcast a few weeks ago that was interviewing the CEO of a battery startup in the USA. It was very interesting since her business partner is one of the researchers that helped invent the Lion battery back in the 70s. She doesn't think there is much future for the current type of Lion batteries for several reasons and stated quite plainly that in her and her partner's opinion is that the only way that batteries can be successful in the way that the governments etc want them to be is if the batteries can be made out of something as common as dirt. Otherwise it just won't be possible.

https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/c3ab628e-2f6f-4360-9e5c-485d1d3e718d/episodes/8c202c13-3a6b-4852-b43e-610ad6cb532e/the-global-lithium-podcast-episode-154-emilie-bodoin

One of the other things she said was interesting. Since the invention of batteries back in the mid 19th century there have only been 2 major changes in battery technology. Lead-acid and Lion. I would maybe add NiCad to that but she knows a lot more about it than I do. Her point was battery technology moves very slowly and it isn't due to a lack of trying.

edit - spelling

 

[Prairie canuck]

There are a few battery manufacturers working on this. The range in good and the charging time is good but........ what they don't mention is current in rush and battery life. They are going to need a huge charging cable and massive contactors to handle that much current without melting. So far the most of the solid state batteries I have heard about have a life expectancy of around 300 charges which is only a year or two of use before they are no good.

Still quite a ways to go I think.

Charging systems depend on the battery voltage, the way forward is to increase the operating voltages thus reducing current and charging times. Most are moving to an 800V battery system which halves the charging time/current compared to 400v battery system. Extrapolate that to even higher voltages and you see the potential. However it's still not clear whether a home charger can be efficiently used to step up from 240V to 800V or 1200V.

 

[KJK]

Charging systems depend on the battery voltage, the way forward is to increase the operating voltages thus reducing current and charging times. Most are moving to an 800V battery system which halves the charging time/current compared to 400v battery system. Extrapolate that to even higher voltages and you see the potential. However it's still not clear whether a home charger can be efficiently used to step up from 240V to 800V or 1200V.

True however in a home setting you will still be limited by the amount of current you can get into the house at 240V. Most houses have a 100 amp panel for the entire house, some may have 125 or 200 amp but that is about the max for normal houses. Also the neighborhood infrastructure probably won't like that too much either, most being maxed out with the current electrical demand.

In an commercial setting a step up transformer would definitely help but those are expensive, take a lot copper and have long lead times. I'm not saying it can't be done but it won't be easy.

 

[Quirky]

True however in a home setting you will still be limited by the amount of current you can get into the house at 240V. Most houses have a 100 amp panel for the entire house, some may have 125 or 200 amp but that is about the max for normal houses. Also the neighborhood infrastructure probably won't like that too much either, most being maxed out with the current electrical demand.

10min at a charging station isn’t nearly as bad as 30+. I wouldn’t even care if I had to go somewhere to recharge.

 

[KJK]

That's true, not much longer than to fill my truck. If they can get solid state batteries to work it will be a game changer. If.

 

[Kirkhill]

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The man running Britain’s gas network has said the country will need fossil fuels to prevent blackouts for decades to come despite calls for the Government to begin shutting off the pipes.

Jon Butterworth, chief executive of National Gas, said a growing reliance on intermittent power sources such as wind and solar meant Britain would be increasingly reliant on gas to make up for shortfalls when renewable energy sources are not generating power.

Mr Butterworth said: “In 2022, the wind didn’t blow enough or at all for 262 days. And in those 262 days, we would have had rolling blackouts, or a full blackout across the UK if it wasn’t for gas.”

He believes Britain will still need gas to keep the lights on as far out as 2040.

“I actually think we’ll be moving more gas but we’ll be moving gas to power stations to make electricity rather than to homes.”

In my opinion, moving gas from furnaces and boilers for home heating and replacing them with electrical devices is not going to improve efficiency. At home all the heat of combustion is enjoyed when the fuel is burnt. In a power plant, especially a Canadian power plant, most of the heat will be wasted and not converted to electricity.

Only 35 to 40% of the heat created will be available to heat homes. The other 60 to 65% will be wasted.

You will need to burn 2.5 times as much fuel to achieve the same heating effect.

Now, in addition there are transmission losses in the power lines. Call it 10% and say your 2.5x goes up to something like three times.

Now. Do you want an electric car with that?

Final question - when was the last time your gas supply was interrupted by an ice storm? Or anything for that matter.

 

[KJK]

Your last point is why I have a gas fireplace that doesn't require any electricity to operate. It may only heat part of the house but it is better than nothing if the power goes out for a long period of time.