The Arctic

[OldSolduer]

If a Hudson Bay port isn't open year-round and is supposed to be a terminus for a pipeline, what do the people on the input end of the pipeline do with their products when the port is shut down?

Watch Star Wars. Or perhaps hold an Inquisition from time to time?

 

[GK .Dundas]

Watch Star Wars. Or perhaps hold an Inquisition from time to time?

I didn't expect that last one.

 

[YZT580]

So if we invested in a fleet of PC5 Aframax tankers - 7 days to Come by Chance, 20 days return, requiring a conveyor of twenty tankers to achieve a shipping rate of 1 MBPD for as long as the ice permits, we/the-company, should also invest in three or 4 PC2 breakers/Emergency Response ships to support the route.

20 tankers at 70 MUSD apiece = 1.4 BUSD for the tankers
How much useable life? 15 to 20 years?

How much for a commercial ice-breaker (as opposed to a government flagship?)

----

Why Come by Chance? Existing refinery and transfer station half way between Churchill and Milford Haven. And Ice Free. Create a Hardisty type tank farm there.

If the tankers have a hull capable of first year ice wouldn't a pair of larger ice breakers based in Rankin or Iqualuit be suficient

 

[Brad Sallows]

Tankage

What's the arithmetic on barrels per day that have to be stored, and how many days worth?

 

[childs56]

If a Hudson Bay port isn't open year-round and is supposed to be a terminus for a pipeline, what do the people on the input end of the pipeline do with their products when the port is shut down?

They would store it in Storage tanks/ underground Caverns as required. build that stock up then ship non stop over the Ice free/ navigable waters. It is already done elsewhere with lots of success.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Churchill is still seriously isolated though. There is no road access, flights are expensive and rail is slightly less expensive but is excruciatingly slow. I believe the rail line will need significant improvements if it is to support this increase in activity. Also, you’ll need to incentivize people to move there to have no real, or an extremely short, summer and pay through the nose for food that isn’t pop and chips.

For the right amount of $$$, they can attract people with the skills to bring the project to full fruition. If they were willing to pay me top $$$, I'd love to take a crack at running the Hudson Bay Rail line.

IMO, it's become a sovereignty issue for us. We should be building a Naval Base there and then we can project right in to the centre of our Country, especially if our position is that the NWP is internal waters.

It would also greatly enhance the supply chain in to our Arctic territories.

 

[Czech_pivo]

For the right amount of $$$, they can attract people with the skills to bring the project to full fruition. If they were willing to pay me top $$$, I'd love to take a crack at running the Hudson Bay Rail line.

IMO, it's become a sovereignty issue for us. We should be building a Naval Base there and then we can project right in to the centre of our Country, especially if our position is that the NWP is internal waters.

It would also greatly enhance the supply chain in to our Arctic territories.

The Russian town for Sabetta, a new LNG port in the Russian arctic, went from a few dozen people to a town of 30,000 in 10-12yrs thanks to the new port and its related facilities.
As someone one else on here has said, new a proper road and people will show up and live there.

 

[GK .Dundas]

The Author of Field of Dreams was quite correct.
"Build it and they will come."

 

[lenaitch]

If a Hudson Bay port isn't open year-round and is supposed to be a terminus for a pipeline, what do the people on the input end of the pipeline do with their products when the port is shut down?

It's on a different level, but the same as what the Great Lakes ports do during winter shut-down; storage.

Salt and/or potash caverns?

Cavern storage (it's actual porous rock storage, not a big open hole in the ground) only works where to geology allows it. In s/w Ontario at least, the 'caverns' used to contain gas and oil before it was extracted.

So if we invested in a fleet of PC5 Aframax tankers - 7 days to Come by Chance, 20 days return, requiring a conveyor of twenty tankers to achieve a shipping rate of 1 MBPD for as long as the ice permits, we/the-company, should also invest in three or 4 PC2 breakers/Emergency Response ships to support the route.

20 tankers at 70 MUSD apiece = 1.4 BUSD for the tankers
How much useable life? 15 to 20 years?

How much for a commercial ice-breaker (as opposed to a government flagship?)

----

Why Come by Chance? Existing refinery and transfer station half way between Churchill and Milford Haven. And Ice Free. Create a Hardisty type tank farm there.

I think the "we/the company" is an important part of the discussion regarding any infrastructure. How much should be public money/public infrastructure and how much should be for-profit investment?

This would be for the European Market as primary. The Asian market could be added. Depending on who's paying.

CFB Cold Lake was isolated not that many years ago with a seasonal road.
Tuktoyaktuk is futher north and equal issues with building a road and they did it.
The only reason the road has not been built is need and want. Run a pipeline, fix the rail line and the road will come.
People.live and work in isolated places all the time. Money talks.

I largely agree, but building a year-round road in the Hudson's Bay lowland would be a challenge. A lot of the Canadian north is tundra, but the the Lowlands is essentially a very large peat-covered swamp. Instability, flooding and washouts have been a constant challenge to the rail line, along with speed and weight restrictions. There are eskers, moraines and ridges that can be exploited, so long as they go in the direction you want to.

The company holding the claim to Ontario's Ring-of-Fire (I forget who - it's changed hands a few times) proposes a year-round heavy haul truck route to mills and refineries further south. I hope I live long enough to see how they pull that off.

 

[PrairieFella]

It's on a different level, but the same as what the Great Lakes ports do during winter shut-down; storage.


Cavern storage (it's actual porous rock storage, not a big open hole in the ground) only works where to geology allows it. In s/w Ontario at least, the 'caverns' used to contain gas and oil before it was extracted.

The Pre-Cambrian Shield stretches up there so there may be some luck in finding ancient lava tubes and what not.

I largely agree, but building a year-round road in the Hudson's Bay lowland would be a challenge. A lot of the Canadian north is tundra, but the the Lowlands is essentially a very large peat-covered swamp. Instability, flooding and washouts have been a constant challenge to the rail line, along with speed and weight restrictions. There are eskers, moraines and ridges that can be exploited, so long as they go in the direction you want to.

So many of our economic and ecological blessings and curses all come back to the same thing - that damn Canadian Shield.

 

[Kirkhill]

@lenaitch

"we/the-company" is, perhaps, the biggest question.

They, the-company, is permitted to sell oil.
They expect to spend money but need a return on that investment.
We get jobs and tax revenues.

The hard part is divvying up the spoils.

There is a case for us investing some of our future earnings, tax revenues, as an investment in kind in the form of supporting infrastructure.

But, as we all know, those discussions are pretty much interminable.

 

[Kirkhill]

The Pre-Cambrian Shield stretches up there so there may be some luck in finding ancient lava tubes and what not.

So many of our economic and ecological blessings and curses all come back to the same thing - that damn Canadian Shield.

I doubt if we would be storing on the Shield. The most likely places to store the oil is where it came from. Oil and salt seem to go together as @lenaitch suggests.

Apparently the Hardisty tank farm is built on top of ground that is suitable for underground storage.

In depth: Western Canada's 62+ million barrels of crude oil storage capacity | Oil Sands Magazine

Crude oil storage levels in Canada don't often get a lot of publicity. As world oil production continues to rise, oil storage is suddenly big business everywhere around the world. And Canada is no exception. There is over 60 million barrels of crude oil storage capacity in Wester

www.oilsandsmagazine.com

Oil Storage Terminals | Oil Sands Magazine

DESCRIPTION: CANADIAN CRUDE OIL STORAGE TERMINALS SITE MAP: PROJECTS / MIDSTREAM / OIL STORAGE TERMINALS SOURCE: TERMINAL OPERATORS UPDATED: JAN 6, 2025

www.oilsandsmagazine.com

Some other interesting data from the same source

Oil Pipelines | Oil Sands Magazine

DESCRIPTION: CANADIAN CRUDE EXPORT AND DILUENT IMPORT PIPELINES SITE MAP: PROJECTS / MIDSTREAM / PIPELINES SOURCE: CAPP, CER, STATISTICS CANADA, PIPELINE OPERATORS UPDATED: MAY 13, 2025

www.oilsandsmagazine.com

Crude-by-Rail | Oil Sands Magazine

DESCRIPTION: CRUDE OIL LOADING/OFFLOADING RAIL TERMINALS SITE MAP: PROJECTS / MIDSTREAM / RAIL LOADING TERMINALS SOURCE: STATISTICS CANADA, CER, EIA, CAPP, TERMINAL OPERATORS UPDATED: MAY 30, 2025

www.oilsandsmagazine.com

....

The oil doesn't have to be stored at Churchill or Port Nelson, or even at the Entrepot, at least not all of it. The "system" has the ability to act as a reservoir. It has a degree of elasticity. If the Churchill route were equivalent to the Burnaby route, 800,000 barrels per day, or 1 tanker a day, during the shipping season, and the intention is to double the output from Alberta from 4,000,000 barrels to 8,000,000 barrels per day then conceivably the storage of the "system" would rise as well. If the storage rose from 60 million barrels to 120 million barrels then a 0.8 million barrel per day draw looks a lot less daunting. 10% of daily production for 1/3 to 2/3 of the year - although I keep wondering if we couldn't stretch that shipping season out even longer.

....

Enbridge’s three Hardisty area storage facilities sit on some 1,000 acres, and consist of the Hardisty Terminal, underground caverns to the north across Highway 13, and the Express Terminal to the east. These facilities are run by a team of 65 employees and comprise 38 above-ground tanks and four underground caverns capable of storing up to 16 million barrels of crude oil and refined products.

For the Canadian oil industry, Hardisty is the hub

Local dignitaries go behind the scenes at Enbridge’s well-connected crude terminal

www.enbridge.com

The study identified 61 salt caverns in Lambton County, in southern Ontario, that could be used to hold 31 million barrels of oil, if Canada was serious about shoring up supplies for unexpected economic shocks to Eastern Canada.

Shockproofing Canada: Why we need a Strategic Petroleum Reserve of our own

Emergency crude reserves would cushion consumers during supply shocks and bolster demand in times of crisis like the one we are in now

financialpost.com

 

[Kirkhill]

An oil supply network that our allies can access at Prince Rupert, Churchill and/or Come by Chance - is that a strategic asset that strengthens them and us?

My wife was just telling me about a video she saw of a couple of guys driving a truckload of fuel to firefighters. They were driving through smoke and fire. The co-driver kept opening his door to keep track of the white line at the side of the road.

For all the talk of converting to a fossil fuel free environment that day has not come. The aircraft, ships, subs, tanks and trucks with which war is currently being fought need fuel today.

 

[Genetk44]

How about a complete tax-holiday from all provincial and federal income taxes for all companies and workers, including subs, during construction phase of all roads railways and port infrastructure as well as during the first 10 years of actual operation of the completed facilities.

 

[PrairieFella]

How about a complete tax-holiday from all provincial and federal income taxes for all companies and workers, including subs, during construction phase of all roads railways and port infrastructure as well as during the first 10 years of actual operation of the completed facilities.

So all of the investment gets nothing in return for a decade? Sounds like a terrible idea honestly.

 

[Genetk44]

So all of the investment gets nothing in return for a decade? Sounds like a terrible idea honestly.

The point is to encourage private investment to build out high quality infrastructure for their benefit…Canada ends up with the transport and built out urban area. The tax income comes later.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

How about a complete tax-holiday from all provincial and federal income taxes for all companies and workers, including subs, during construction phase of all roads railways and port infrastructure as well as during the first 10 years of actual operation of the completed facilities.

Definitely some tax breaks will be needed, but governments will still need tax revenue. Likely some tax credits for companies involved that they can claim.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The point is to encourage private investment to build out high quality infrastructure for their benefit…Canada ends up with the transport and built out urban area. The tax income comes later.

Hard to convince companies to build infrastructure these days. But they sure are happy to use it when someone else builds it. I was involved in the permitting and approval of bridges on this project

Sierra Yoyo Desan (SYD) Road P3

In 2003, Ledcor was awarded the contract to design, build, finance, operate and maintain (DBFOM) the 180-kilometre Sierra Yoyo Desan Road for 16 years as the Province of British Columbia’s first Public-Private Partnership (P3) Project on behalf of British Columbia Ministry of Energy and Mines.

www.ledcor.com

 

[childs56]

Hard to convince companies to build infrastructure these days. But they sure are happy to use it when someone else builds it. I was involved in the permitting and approval of bridges on this project

Sierra Yoyo Desan (SYD) Road P3

In 2003, Ledcor was awarded the contract to design, build, finance, operate and maintain (DBFOM) the 180-kilometre Sierra Yoyo Desan Road for 16 years as the Province of British Columbia’s first Public-Private Partnership (P3) Project on behalf of British Columbia Ministry of Energy and Mines.

www.ledcor.com

That road was a mess, last time I was up there in 2013 it wasn't much better. Having to preposition equipment and fly crews in and out made things interesting. The scope of the drilling project up there was enormous. Made the BC government alot of money off the process. If they play their cards right will make them lots of money in the future.

 

[OldSolduer]

For the right amount of $$$, they can attract people with the skills to bring the project to full fruition. If they were willing to pay me top $$$, I'd love to take a crack at running the Hudson Bay Rail line.

The rail line from Thompson, MB (I think) to Churchill is not in good repair. It is nasty terrain - muskeg, swamps etc - to build and maintain a rail line.
Mind you we did (at least our forefathers) built a rail line through mountains, forests and muskeg.