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Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

Unless its a mobilization with job protection, they're names on paper.
If its mobilization it doesn't matter WTF they think. Their other option will be jail.

You're all missing the damn point.

All this BS about job protection means nothing when the Gov't pulls the mobilization switch. Congrats, your high paying civilian job is now vacant and you're deploying to fighting on the Baltic Front.
 
As long as the word coming out of the CAF is we're going to grow the reserves to 100,000 I'll know they aren't serious. That's not mobilization planning. When they say we'll build a dozen equipment and munitions factories, three armoured and three light divisions, 12 submarines, 30 armed patrol vessels, and another hundred aircraft, or something of that nature, then I'll start to pay attention.

🍻 Doesn't every plan need to start with a vision or " big hairy audacious goal". Pin that to the wall, gather a group of intelligent, experienced yet practical thinkers and then figure out how to make the BHAG come to life. Discover the key constraints and identify current deal-breakers. Then circle back to the BHAG and find a way to work around the deal-breakers. It may not be the CAF way but it can be done ... if there is sufficient support. Strike while the Carney is hot!
 
If its mobilization it doesn't matter WTF they think. Their other option will be jail.

You're all missing the damn point.

All this BS about job protection means nothing when the Gov't pulls the mobilization switch. Congrats, your high paying civilian job is now vacant and you're deploying to fighting on the Baltic Front.
This was kind of my point.

The post I was replying to stated that the QOR of C is at 86% TES and would be prime candidates for a tour to Latvia as a Force Element. I countered that unless the GoC deployed those forces under a mobilization, folks would politely turn down the deployment, and that 86% is more like 40-60% PML.

The question becomes, when does the GoC call for mobilization? When SHTF or when the Reg F is starting to burn out? How much political capital would that cost a minority government?
 
The question becomes, when does the GoC call for mobilization? When SHTF or when the Reg F is starting to burn out? How much political capital would that cost a minority government?
0 if we were in a shooting war with Russia or china, and the casualty lists are coming home.
 
Do not confuse Army Res F unit establishments with being operational structures. Nor should you confuse "number of people against a UIC" with "anything resembling a combat capability".
Which is an institutional issue which should be rectified. Hence the consistent circular argument on this page about how to make the UIC an actual deployable entity when the shit hits the fan.
 
The NDA requires nothing like job protection or volunteerism. If the GoC places a unit or individual members of the PRes on s31(1) active service
I am not understanding how 31(1) would apply to the Reserves? Unless it was an Emergency. Which case I would assume the EA would be enacted and then they have all kinds of irregular powers.
Unless a member was already attached to a Regular Force Unit on Class C at the time.
or the MND calls them out on s 33(2)(b) service then a name on the enrollment form is enough.
The word "MAY" is a key word in the legislation. DND does not want to use that legislation due to responsibly for job losses upon return during peace time operations. If they did enact 33(2)(b) it would indicate to all that they were not meeting their Regular Force Commitments during peace time operations. That might mean a few people would have to answer to that. No to mention the amount of Reservists who would loose their Civilian Jobs and or have major setbacks rejoining the work force.

How does Section 33(3) come into play.
Please stop confusing the CAF's long standing habit of asking for PRes volunteers with the legal obligations accompanying being a member of the PRes. One can argue the political ramification all one wants, but the law is the law.
The law needs to be justified in its use. One does not need to strong arm the case to keep acceptance under normal operating conditions.
 
🍻 Doesn't every plan need to start with a vision or " big hairy audacious goal". Pin that to the wall, gather a group of intelligent, experienced yet practical thinkers and then figure out how to make the BHAG come to life. Discover the key constraints and identify current deal-breakers. Then circle back to the BHAG and find a way to work around the deal-breakers. It may not be the CAF way but it can be done ... if there is sufficient support. Strike while the Carney is hot!

Do you hear yourself?
This is the CAF and the carney government you're talking about here.
Your expectations are way to high.😂
 
The problem I see, having lost my job twice before for the military, isnt the lack of rules, its the lack of enforcement, and timely enforcement. Get all your ducks in a row, and make sure employee and employer know they are protected and that they will be pursued if they break the rules.
That is a very real problem and with the current job protection being provincial and the provincial crowns up to their butts doing the mass of the criminal work in the country, you won't find much help there.

If this came under federal legislation with a mediation service (lets say from VAC) and an enforcement service (lets say from DoJ), both properly resourced, (as a former DJAG I'd suggest about 20 RegF and another 20 ResF legal officers could be dedicated to that system without undermining the functioning of the rest of the JAG's offices)
I've been trying to find historical numbers for the Regular Force. My illustrated history of the Canadian Army tells me that at the end of 1952 the regular army had reached 49,000 while reserves stood at 47,000. Found this link to Stats Can numbers that show what I assume to be Regular Force for all 3 services and has the Army at just under 52,000 in 1962 https://www66.statcan.gc.ca/eng/1988/198807190711_p. 21-43.pdf . Interestingly, the 49,000 in 1952 was for a field force of 5 brigade groups. A decade later the Army was almost 3,000 larger but for a field force of 4 brigade groups. Not sure what that implies when it comes to the current discussion of significant increases in personnel except that even with an armed forces probably at their peace time peak in size we were still thinking in terms of brigades, not divisions (I believe that by '62 1 CDN Division was no longer a thing). Note also the 21,500 in the RCN and 53,000 in the RCAF in '62. As a sidebar, the 1962 numbers are for a population less than half of what we have now, albeit one that was probably much more connected to our military given the number of veterans still living (and serving).
The structure we had back in the late 1950s and onwards for much of the Cold War was based on ideas brought out by Gen Guy Simonds. We had a larger RegF than ResF because he was convinced we would not be able to mobilize reserves in time for a modern war in Europe. We'd be forced to fight with what was in theatre and was equipped and that was a brigade. Most felt that the war would be quick. 30 days or less because NATO was prepared to go nuclear if pushed too far back and we'd either be at the negotiating table or exterminated. No one expected a Ukraine-style meat grinding exercise. That just shows you how well we can judge the other side.

When Korea happened folks thought that it was a diversion to pull allied forces out of Europe and make NATO weaker for an invasion of Europe. Canada committed two divisions to Europe - an air division (which was formed and deployed) and an army division (of which one brigade deployed while the remainder were back in Canada) We had a love and hate relationship with 1 Div over the next half century between those who felt we'd never deploy more than a brigade and those who thought . . . maybe we might need one after all. After the Soviets broke apart we stopped focusing on brigades and started thinking smaller - battlegroups. The RCAF whittled down its air div of Canadian built- Sabre jets in Germany over the years - everyone laughed at our CF-5 era.

Not only does Canada think small, but we nickel and dime that small part with tiny UORs. Think of UORs as the finger in the dyke defence management.

🍻
 
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Which is an institutional issue which should be rectified. Hence the consistent circular argument on this page about how to make the UIC an actual deployable entity when the shit hits the fan.
The Army uses all units, Reg and Res, to generate ad hoc deployable units for operations. It's a larger circle to square than just the Res F.

There is a strong need to rationalize what Res units do - they should not be doing recruiting or pre-OFP training or training management.

As long as the Res F fights to hold on to excessive work for notionally part time leadership they will continue to founder.
 
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@BdaDug Doesn't every plan need to start with a vision or " big hairy audacious goal". Pin that to the wall, gather a group of intelligent, experienced yet practical thinkers and then figure out how to make the BHAG come to life. Discover the key constraints and identify current deal-breakers. Then circle back to the BHAG and find a way to work around the deal-breakers. It may not be the CAF way but it can be done ... if there is sufficient support. Strike while the Carney is hot!
Indeed it does - I call it a "vision" which is fostered by a high-level champion.

Most of us work things through an estimate process. That starts at the far end by defining what your defence objectives are and then works backward to developing the options of what is needed to meet those objectives. Allocating how many people are needed - full-timers and/or part-timers - is one of the last stages of that analysis.

I am not understanding how 31(1) would apply to the Reserves? Unless it was an Emergency. Which case I would assume the EA would be enacted and then they have all kinds of irregular powers.
Unless a member was already attached to a Regular Force Unit on Class C at the time.
s31(1)(b) or (c) does not need an "emergency." As to s 33(1)(a) and s 33(2)(b) note that "emergency" includes the rider "whether real or apprehended." "Apprehended" is both broad and anticipatory in its meaning. Note this OiC for example:

PC 1989-583
...for the purpose of fulfilling Canada's obligations under the North Atlantic Treaty, to place

(a) officers and non-commissioned members of the regular force of the Canadian Forces on active service anywhere in or beyond Canada; and

(b) officers and non-commissioned members of the reserve force of the Canadian Forces on active service anywhere beyond Canada.
<sup>[1]</sup> (Emphasis added)


<u><sup>[1]</sup></u> Canada, Order in Council PC 1989-583, April 6, 1989 Order Placing Members of the Canadian Forces on Active Service for the Purpose of Fulfilling Canada’s Obligations Under the North Atlantic Treaty

As to the rest of your arguments, they are very imaginative but not real. Enabling laws are laws. Whether they are used or not is a political decision vested in cabinet and the MND respectively.

🍻
 
s31(1)(b) or (c) does not need an "emergency."
Emergency was probably the wrong word. But a very good strong reason to do so would be better termed. Again this would only open up the discussion over Regular Force Staffing levels if they had to Activate a Reserve Unit(s) to full fill a UN mission.
As to s 33(1)(a) and s 33(2)(b) note that "emergency" includes the rider "whether real or apprehended." "Apprehended" is both broad and anticipatory in its meaning. Note this OiC for example:
Again they would have to require a reason to employ such a scope of use.
As to the rest of your arguments, they are very imaginative but not real. Enabling laws are laws. Whether they are used or not is a political decision vested in cabinet and the MND respectively.

🍻
Laws are in place but they have their reasons to enact such a law. There are checks and balances within those laws to keep them from being abused. Although you can do something, does not mean you should unless you have a good reason.
I would have to say unless a War broke out where our military was 100% committed to fighting it with all our Regular Force members participating, with no end in sight. I doubt our Government would activate a Reserve Unit or members to Full time status and deploy them under these Orders.
How does Section 33(3) effect 33(1) and (2)?

Sorry not trying to challenge you on this. I was involved in a similar discussion with my COC years ago, we could not come up with solid answer outside of an emergency. That included contacting the AJag at the time for their thoughts on the matter.
It is an interesting discussion with lots of possible ramifications on all sides.
 
Emergency was probably the wrong word.
"Emergency" i a very good word, in fact, because it has very specific meanings in the NDA going beyond the ordinary definition of the word.
But a very good strong reason to do so would be better termed.
There ought to be a reason, certainly. "Very good strong," are modifiers that are not required legally and is arguable as to being a politically necessity - good propaganda can generate the requisite public buy-in.
Again this would only open up the discussion over Regular Force Staffing levels if they had to Activate a Reserve Unit(s) to full fill a UN mission.
I'm a very strong believer that day-to-day missions that the CAF is anticipated to fulfill should be within the ambit of the RegF's duties and missions. The time and reason to mobilize a ResF unit is very much dependant on the situation.
Again they would have to require a reason to employ such a scope of use.
That's not in dispute. Who defines what is reasonable varies from person to person. When it comes down to the issue then the opinion of the GiC or the MND is what governs.
Laws are in place but they have their reasons to enact such a law. There are checks and balances within those laws to keep them from being abused. Although you can do something, does not mean you should unless you have a good reason.
The check and balance is that the GiC or, as applicable, the MND - i.e. officials elected by the public - are the final decision makers.
I would have to say unless a War broke out where our military was 100% committed to fighting it with all our Regular Force members participating, with no end in sight. I doubt our Government would activate a Reserve Unit or members to Full time status and deploy them under these Orders.
I would think that in the type of situation that you describe the best course of action would be to have a portion of the RegF lead a large mobilized ResF in combat while the rest of the RegF trains further reservists and new recruits.
How does Section 33(3) effect 33(1) and (2)?
It only effects the Supplementary reserve. It has no effect on the PRes.
Sorry not trying to challenge you on this. I was involved in a similar discussion with my COC years ago, we could not come up with solid answer outside of an emergency. That included contacting the AJag at the time for their thoughts on the matter.
It is an interesting discussion with lots of possible ramifications on all sides.
I don't feel challenged at all. After twelve years in the RegF artillery I went to law school and from 1984 to 2009 served as a ResF legal officer as a DJA, a DAJAG and as the DJAG(Res). Advising people on the NDA, the QR&Os etc, the CSD and the LOAC was literally my job. As @dapaterson can confirm, there are a whole lot of senior officers, both RegF and ResF, who do not have a firm handle on military law. Myths and misconceptions abound at all ranks.

Cheers
 
Interestingly the difference between max standard Cpl and max standard Sgt is $887.

Shrinking that doesn’t seem like a great idea.

As for allowances for specific positions, ie instructors; I am not sure I am supportive of it. If an individual had a greater ability to control their postings I would be supportive but that’s not the case. The branches, corps, and regiments control that far more than the individual.

Perhaps an allowance for mobility would be better institutionally if we aren’t going to enable individuals to control their postings more. Reward overall mobility vs specific positions.

I think that's the metric people don't understand. Or don't want to understand. And right now we have S1s making as much as PO2s with CFHD, which admittedly diminishes over time. I can tell you this is a constant topic in C&POs on my ship.

Why not tie pay to a yearly DAG ?

DAG Green 125% Pay - Fully Employable and Deployable Receive Environmental/Occupational Allowances
DAG Yellow 100% Pay - Not Postable or Deployable and No environmental/occupational allowances
DAG Red 85% Pay - Not Postable and Not Deployable and No environmental/occupational allowances

Just a spitball.

I don't take issue with giving instructors an allowance. That's fair to me, but again that's just my opinion.

Sure, but if it's going to be some kind of pay raise of x%, and some kind of targeted benefits increase, then should be pretty straightforward to multiply the pay tables by 1.x and pump it out, if it's actually a GoC priority. The ministers, cabinet and TBS president can do that kind of thing pretty easily if they flex their existing legislative authorities, especially now that the supp budget increase got passed by the Senate last week with the $8.4 billion increase for this year's budget.

Talking about Winter (which in GoC terms can be Nov - March) sounds like it's going to be a lot more of a cluster.

Again, this all seems like a self goal, when they could have waited until the bureaucracy was at 90% and then announce some actual details. Now if it's anything less than 20% bump to monthly pay it's going to be a mess, and already going to piss people off by messing around for 3-9 months after an announcement from the MND that said 'immediately'.

If nothing else, starts the new guy off with a negative credibility.

Internally going to take a while for that in year funding bump to get through, but frankly Cinderella funds that run out 31 March showing up in August is half useless, when it still takes 4-6 months to get in contract. Even paying for travel to support projects or ongoing work is still restricted by the artificial travel cap, that has nothing to do with money being available.

Agreed on all points.
 

169,000 Jan 2022
700,000 July 2022

Plus border guards (60,000)
police (130,000)
and national guard. (60-90,000)


Over 500,000 people absorbed in under 6 months.

( and that included buying their own uniforms, guns and drones, learning how to fire Javelins and NLAWs, and directly and actively engaging Russians, killing and being killed, while families were being killed, captured or evacuated).
Keep in mind Ukraine had a lot of former conscripts available in country who could be armed and retrained much faster than anywhere in the West. That makes a difference when you consider how fast they mobilized. They weren't starting from scratch, they were refreshing and bringing up to date on many.

If its mobilization it doesn't matter WTF they think. Their other option will be jail.

You're all missing the damn point.

All this BS about job protection means nothing when the Gov't pulls the mobilization switch. Congrats, your high paying civilian job is now vacant and you're deploying to fighting on the Baltic Front.
It matters as if you are mobilizing without a real serious need, you will lose a lot of people from the Reserves and likely kill any future that organization has.

The CAF has made it very clear to Reservists that they are not their main paycheque. Once you start messing with someones real career (which the Reserves isn't) for no good reason beyond ‘we feel like it’ you will lose them.

If its a real shooting war with a actual need odds are they will be more than willing to go without any leglislation. If it’s just a experiment to see how strong a unit could be deployed from the Reserves, good luck with keeping those troops afterwards. You would also lose Reservists from other units who after seeing what they are doing would bail.
 
If its mobilization it doesn't matter WTF they think. Their other option will be jail.

You're all missing the damn point.

All this BS about job protection means nothing when the Gov't pulls the mobilization switch. Congrats, your high paying civilian job is now vacant and you're deploying to fighting on the Baltic Front.

Canada's past performance shows we don't do that well.

Thy name is Conscription Crisis.
 
Canada's past performance shows we don't do that well
Mobilizing the militia worked exceptionally well in both wars. I have no doubt though that plenty would bail hard.
Thy name is Conscription Crisis.
A different thing. But yes. I suspect we would struggle to conscript unless we were in an existential crisis. And even then.
 
Mobilizing the militia worked exceptionally well in both wars. I have no doubt though that plenty would bail hard.
You who is really bored? MP's. They love it when you ask them to go check in at a PRes members house.

Particularly those well paid fire fighters and police officers who think that they get special treatment because they are first responders.
 
You who is really bored? MP's. They love it when you ask them to go check in at a PRes members house.
Maybe. Recent events show that they won’t even investigate Facebook private groups until it becomes national news. My guess is they would just punt it to the units to deal with…

Not sure how bored they really are.
Particularly those well paid fire fighters and police officers who think that they get special treatment because they are first responders.
Of course. I suspect a pile will pull out whatever card they can to get out of it. You see it in the reg force as well. Sudden med chits and excuses to avoid deploying.
 
found this part most interesting. Sounds like the pay difference between junior and senior ranks is going to shrink.

Sounds like a great way for people to avoid promotion once they realize the juice isn’t worth the squeeze in the higher ranks, after you factor in the minimal pay bump.

Perhaps an allowance for mobility would be better institutionally if we aren’t going to enable individuals to control their postings more. Reward overall mobility vs specific positions.

If you’re single or you have a spouse who works at a canex, sure.
 
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