The Aussie’s refused them already, not sure why they would want something that we are having such a challenge with.
Replacing the Subs
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As an outsider I will not know, but I do know the Aussies are between a rock and a hard place, particularly if we beat them to the order lineup with South Korea, grasping at straws might be their only option.
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When did we offer them to them?
Not us. The Brit’s offered them to Australia. Aussies sent a team over to UK to inspect. And then turned them down and then built Collins. Chretian hummed and hawed because he didn’t want to spend a dime on CAF. I’m guessing it was take em or no more subs for you. And we’ve been struggling ever since.
Halifax Tar
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As much as I think SK is offering the best solution to our problem and quickly, plus added the incentive of the Army kit they want to provide; I think politically this is going to get steered towards Germany and it will be decades if we ever see a new sub from them.
I don't have a lot of faith in Europe producing anything on time, on budget and fully capable at launch. Maybe a kebab.
Oldgateboatdriver
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I just saw PM MC on TV last night saying that basically, our military budget would quadruple over the next ten years.
However, like Underway, I have yet to see or hear of any plan for how Ottawa intends to manage the expansion and training of the personnel we will need for all those new shinny toys*.
* Unless, of course, he intends to reach his target by quadrupling the CF salaries over the next ten years.
However, like Underway, I have yet to see or hear of any plan for how Ottawa intends to manage the expansion and training of the personnel we will need for all those new shinny toys*.
* Unless, of course, he intends to reach his target by quadrupling the CF salaries over the next ten years.
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I'm got a sinking feeling that you may be right.
I've said a number of times, that there has to be a 'price' for us to be allowed into the European fold for this 'RAMP' and the rest of it that Europe is undertaking. I thought that it would be us having to buy some large purchase of French kit or possibly Swedish kit but I'm thinking that the pound of flesh that we offer up to the Europeans is the sub project. If India selects the Germans for their new subs, and even the Poles, then we are toast in terms of timelines.
I'd be hard pressed to say what would be the worst approach if the Indians/Poles join as well - us having the Germans build the first 2-3 subs and us trying to build the rest ourselves back in Canada or having the Germans build the entire 12 and we get our last sub post 2050.
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I just saw PM MC on TV last night saying that basically, our military budget would quadruple over the next ten years.
However, like Underway, I have yet to see or hear of any plan for how Ottawa intends to manage the expansion and training of the personnel we will need for all those new shinny toys*.
* Unless, of course, he intends to reach his target by quadrupling the CF salaries over the next ten years.
Quick reminder:
The man leads a minority government.
Wasn't there a quid pro quo? We'll buy your mothballed subs and you'll commit to staying at Suffield?
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FWIW the VLS system has come with the Tomahawk option for a long time, and there was already a spec developed for the 280s back in the 90s to convert individual launcher cells over (mechanically very simple actually).
Subs having underwater launch capabilities is terrifying, and really kind of neuters the advantage you get on surface ships using helos to dip active sonar.
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Especially for a SSK.
Trying to clear a missile launch datum in anything other than a SSN is….sporty.
Edit: now, if you have a really long ranged missile, that datum may not matter, because the bad guys can’t get to you in a timely fashion…
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That's one thing I was wondering about, but I guess if the only air assets in the area aren't yours, and you aren't worried about civilian casualties then maybe it's easier.
I guess you could get the effect with loitering munitions as well with some kind of AA threat detection, which is also terrifying to think about. What you can do now with optical detection now is pretty nuts.
Oldgateboatdriver
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A SSK with AIP can still clear datum at about 20 kts for about five or six hours, but the beauty is after that, they don't have to surface to recharge. Just go to loiter mode. And an AIP SSK loitering around at three kts makes about as much noise as a hole in the water. If they have deep diving capability, I would not count them as dead quite yet.
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I don’t have alot of confidence in our politicians and bureaucrats to make the best apolitical decision.
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As a Sea King TACCO (heh), the usual method of gaining contact in the simulator was either a missile plume or a torpedo bearing.
Either way, it always resulted in a dead submarine, 100% of the time (either we were that good or…hey! Wait a second…)
Oldgateboatdriver
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Are actual submariners playing against you as the simulated submarine, or other TACCO's?
Lets see here:
1) You do know that submarines have the capability of slowly deploying a torpedo a couple of miles (or more, perhaps?) away in a direction opposite to where they are before turning it into the target and kicking it into high gear. You go for that bearing, you are already off target.
2) The chance of you happening to be close enough to where a missile submarine actually shoots its missile to start with is relatively slim. Submarines using missiles will use them way off the target,; unless...
3) it's an anti-air missile, in which case you can possibly kiss your ass goodbye before you can turn to chase.
Lets see here:
1) You do know that submarines have the capability of slowly deploying a torpedo a couple of miles (or more, perhaps?) away in a direction opposite to where they are before turning it into the target and kicking it into high gear. You go for that bearing, you are already off target.
2) The chance of you happening to be close enough to where a missile submarine actually shoots its missile to start with is relatively slim. Submarines using missiles will use them way off the target,; unless...
3) it's an anti-air missile, in which case you can possibly kiss your ass goodbye before you can turn to chase.
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Other TACCOs…
I am well aware of both wire guided torpedos and sub launched SAMs. Thanks.
We don’t need to get particularly to a sub to get a kill any longer. There are ways…
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is there really a wrong choice here? Other than earlier delivery schedule?
OldSolduer
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Well military and naval people with actual detailed knowledge and insights would be more valid to comment on if there is a wrong choice between the 2 subs. Personally and with my very very limited knowledge I think the SK boat is the better option for many reasons outside the delivery schedule. But if we consider the two subs absolutely equal in all technical parameters….then the delivery schedule is absolutely the tie-breaker and on that badis alone the SKs should be the choice.
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