Replacing the Subs

[Kirkhill]

"Company officials say that if a contract is signed this year, the first KSS-III submarine could be delivered by 2031, with all three boats in service by 2033" - That is the stated timeline for the Polish boats if they chose SK this week.

I'm not sure how the SK could deliver those 3 boats to Poland and then another 4 boats for us, a total of 7 boats, in the timeframe between 2031 and 2036.

Google tells me that SK can, and does, produce up to 220 hulls every year. Two companies produce about 100 each. That is about 4 launches a week nationally.

All shipyards, shipbuilders & docks in South Korea

<h2>Shipbuilding and Ship Repair Market in South Korea</h2><p>The shipbuilding and ship repair industry in South Korea is one of the largest and most advanced in the world. The country has a long history of shipbuilding, dating back to the early 20th century. Today, South Korea is home to some...

www.trusteddocks.com

 

[Genetk44]

The Japanese, Chinese and Koreans consistently accomplish build projects in far far quicker time than Canadians or pretty well any western country. They consistently demolish and rebuild highway overpasses in 2-7 days where it takes us 6 months.

 

[Kirkhill]

The Japanese, Chinese and Koreans consistently accomplish build projects in far far quicker time than Canadians or pretty well any western country. They consistently demolish and rebuild highway overpasses in 2-7 days where it takes us 6 months.

To be fair, the Chinese then rebuild them again in 2-7 days in 6 months time when they fall down.

 

[Rifleman62]

I'm not sure how the SK could deliver those 3 boats to Poland and then another 4 boats for us, a total of 7 boats, in the timeframe between 2031 and 2036.

Well, they are not Irving.

 

[NavyShooter]

Well, they are not Irving.

ANYTHING but Irving....

 

[Nvlgzr]

I read a few weeks back that they are partnering with another yard in Korea so they would effectively have two lines going. As well, the above article seems to intimate that construction for the Polish version would be shared between the two countries. There is no indication though as to how much work would be done in Poland but the implication is the refurbishing of perhaps the Gdansk shipyard or one like it perhaps aiming for more off-shore contracts.

Hanwha Ocean and DSME are partnered on KSS-III builds. They both have submarine production lines and Hanwha has recently increased their facilities. So I don’t see a Polish build of 4 having a major impact. SK needs to start cutting steel on new orders to keep the work force busy.

 

[quadrapiper]

Not a chance. Its the RCH 155 almost guaranteed. K9 Thunder doesn't meet the strategic mobility requirements. (wrong thread but there it is).

Buy the RCH. Pair it with the LAV and light units.

Issue a tightly-written Heavy Brigade Mobile Artillery RFI shortly after.

 

[HavokFour]

The wait for Poland's announcement is a real killer this week. Be interesting to see if our own choice is made shortly after, with the budget not being tabled until November.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

The wait for Poland's announcement is a real killer this week. Be interesting to see if our own choice is made shortly after, with the budget not being tabled until November.

Interesting article by Michael J. Lalonde comparing the U212 CD to the KS-III Batch II submarines and which one is best suited for Canada.

Canada’s Submarine Dilemma: Type 212CD vs KSS-III

Canada must choose between the stealthy German Type 212CD and the powerful Korean KSS-III. Which submarine best secures Canada’s future?

www.michaeljlalonde.com

Just looking at the specifics for the two subs I would think the U212 CD would actually fit the Polish requirements a lot more then the KS-III.

The U212 CD is a small sub designed to sit and wait and ambush its target, which is perfect for the Baltic Sea/North Sea.

On the other hand, the KS-III is larger and designed to operate as a blue-sea submarine, not in the confines of the Baltic.

TKMS has stated that if chosen they have the capacity to accommodate the Polish order. On the other hand, Poland has already bought a lot of SK kit and SK has offered lots of trade-offs if the KS-III is bought.

We watch with abated breath.

P.S. According to that Fountain of Knowledge (aka Wikipedia) South Korea has offered a 2000 ton version of the KS-III, DSME-2000.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Interesting article by Michael J. Lalonde comparing the U212 CD to the KS-III Batch II submarines and which one is best suited for Canada.

Canada’s Submarine Dilemma: Type 212CD vs KSS-III

Canada must choose between the stealthy German Type 212CD and the powerful Korean KSS-III. Which submarine best secures Canada’s future?

www.michaeljlalonde.com

Just looking at the specifics for the two subs I would think the U212 CD would actually fit the Polish requirements a lot more then the KS-III.

The U212 CD is a small sub designed to sit and wait and ambush its target, which is perfect for the Baltic Sea/North Sea.

On the other hand, the KS-III is larger and designed to operate as a blue-sea submarine, not in the confines of the Baltic.

TKMS has stated that if chosen they have the capacity to accommodate the Polish order. On the other hand, Poland has already bought a lot of SK kit and SK has offered lots of trade-offs if the KS-III is bought.

We watch with abated breath.

P.S. According to that Fountain of Knowledge (aka Wikipedia) South Korea has offered a 2000 ton version of the KS-III, DSME-2000.

Out of curiosity, between Denmark, Germany, Poland, Sweden and Finland, how many NATO subs will be sitting quietly waiting for a Russian ship to attempt to move outside 15km of Russians Baltic shoreline?
I can’t help but think the Baltic will be a target starved body of water.

 

[YZT580]

Out of curiosity, between Denmark, Germany, Poland, Sweden and Finland, how many NATO subs will be sitting quietly waiting for a Russian ship to attempt to move outside 15km of Russians Baltic shoreline?
I can’t help but think the Baltic will be a target starved body of water.

there are at least 90 phantom tankers to go after

 

[Cloud Cover]

there are at least 90 phantom tankers to go after

What? Still have that many?

 

[Underway]

What? Still have that many?

You would be surprised how many sketch actors there are at sea. Especially as they moonlight as legit actors half the time.

 

[MilEME09]

Unfortunately my usual go around for pay walls in not working but Admiral Topshee have another interview

Canada weighing direct contract with foreign governments for sub purchase, head of navy says

Vice-Admiral Angus Topshee said a government-to-government contract could be more beneficial for Canada

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[suffolkowner]

Lets Talk with Micheal Coulter, Hanwha Aerospace Global Defense CEO & Steve Jeong Head of Naval Ship International Business, Hanwha Ocean!

In our debut episode, Noah Gairn sits down with Micheal Coulter, Global Defense CEO at Hanwha Aerospace and Steve Jeong, Head of Naval Ship International Business at Hanwha Ocean to discuss:

noahscornerofrandomstuff.substack.com

Noahs interview with Michael Coulter from Hanwha

 

[Czech_pivo]

Unfortunately my usual go around for pay walls in not working but Admiral Topshee have another interview

Canada weighing direct contract with foreign governments for sub purchase, head of navy says

Vice-Admiral Angus Topshee said a government-to-government contract could be more beneficial for Canada

www.theglobeandmail.com

Anyone able to post what’s behind the paywall?

 

[MilEME09]

Anyone able to post what’s behind the paywall?

Canada weighing direct contract with foreign governments for sub purchase, head of navy says

Vice-Admiral Angus Topshee said a government-to-government contract could be more beneficial for Canada

web.archive.org

Not working from my phone but try this

 

[KevinB]

And I reiterate that all the tracked cultists consistently underestimate how tactically mobile modern 8x8 or 10x10 vehicles actually are.

On very firm ground.
You can’t get away from the ground pressure issues with wheeled vehicles.
The LAV 6 series and the 10x10 chassis are very heavy, and don’t have nearly the capability off road that many supporters claim.

Not to mention as soon as the tires blow the run flats have exponentially higher ground pressure.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Anyone able to post what’s behind the paywall?

Try this:

News.iAsk.ca - AI-Powered Canadian News

AI-powered Canadian news and analysis. Get the latest updates from across Canada and around the world.

www.iask.ca

 

[Underway]

The navy commander likened such a partnership to AUKUS, the Australian-British-American pact to share nuclear propulsion technology with Australia.

Canada’s purchase of as many as a dozen new submarines will give this country a capability it doesn’t have right now with four subs, most of which are not operational. And the procurement has the prospect to exceed Ottawa’s purchase of new F-35 fighter jets, with some analysts projecting the total acquisition cost over the boats’ life cycle could hit $120-billion for 12 subs.

Vice-Adm. Topshee said a direct government-to-government contract in which the home country of the defence contractor is responsible for delivering submarines, rather than the company itself, could yield more benefits for Canada.

“What if we want to insist on German and Norwegian investment in a certain Canadian technology? What if there’s some sort of LNG deal as part of this?” he said, referring to Canadian exports of liquefied natural gas.

The commander said these types of decisions go beyond the remit of defence contractors.

“And that’s why I think we’re probably more inclined toward a government-to-government arrangement, because the type of strategic partnership we’re looking to do is going to be more between governments, enabled by the acquisition of a submarine.”

One benefit could be accelerated delivery of submarines. TKMS is building the 212 CD sub for the German and Norwegian navies and has a production schedule to give some early boats to those two countries.

“If we were to say, ‘Okay, well we want the third one off the line,’ and TKMS can’t give that to us,” then perhaps the German and Norwegian governments “could agree: ‘We will delay the delivery of the submarine to us and give it to Canada first,’” Vice-Adm. Topshee said

He said direct negotiation with governments could also allow for more Canadian input not only in the submarines built for this country but also the submarines that the South Korean and German manufacturers are building for other clients, including their own navies.

Two of the most interesting sections of the article. This basically means that Canada negotiates directly with SK or Norway+Germany for the submarines instead of the company. It also means that Canadian tech slowly gets added to the platform for all the submarines of that type that are being built by those countries. So perhaps Canadian naviagation systems become standard on the 212CD for all three countries etc...

Its an interesting discussion.

If its going to be this sort of discussion then I would say that the 212 CD is gaining ground fast on the KSSIII. Because There are going to be more 212's built for other countries than just us, and the KSS III is probably not going to be further built by SK for any other client.