Replacing the Subs

[Halifax Tar]

There's no way we're switching to nuke boats.

Which is a GD shame.

 

[Nvlgzr]

Agreed.
For now.
But, if we go with the SK boats and the relationship turns out to be a solid one, mutually beneficial for both sides. Solid investment on both the WC and EC in terms of a supply/maintenance facilities and job numbers and lets say the SK partner with Cameco for their uranium or with Ontario Power for nuc knowledge going into their new boats. Then 20-25yrs down the road when it comes time to begin the planning to replace our existing 12 SK conventional subs, we very well could go down the path of SK nuc boats, conventionally armed.

Please remember we were well down the path of getting 12 nuc subs under Mulroney in the early 90s. If the world continues down the path of its current ugliness and the US continues to move away from being our crutch, tough decisions will need to be made 20-25yrs down the road.

If the SK's build nuc boats, I'm going out on a limb and will predict that Japan will be next up and then the Germans. Who will be left to produce us a conventional sub in 25yrs? The Swedes? The Spanish? India? It very well could be that the entire western market of conventional subs will be dried up and gone 25yrs from now.

Germany won’t ever get nuke boats. 2 years ago they made IMHO the stupidest mistake by closing thei last nuclear power station in their knee jerk reaction to the Fukushima tidal wave mess.

 

[stoker dave]

tough decisions will need to be made 20-25yrs down the road.

That is not unreasonable.

If you want to plan for nuclear powered vessels 20 or 25 years in the future, you need to start right now developing a culture of 'procedural compliance'. The documented plan is the law. No shortcuts. No workarounds. No 'adapt, improvise and overcome'. No rewarding someone for taking initiative to solve a problem in a creative way. Every single thing you do is done by the book. No one has the authority to order any activity that is not authorized by procedure.

That is the culture required to operate a nuclear power plant. It will take 20 - 25 years for that culture to permeate the navy. Start now if you are serious.

 

[Lumber]

That is not unreasonable.

If you want to plan for nuclear powered vessels 20 or 25 years in the future, you need to start right now developing a culture of 'procedural compliance'. The documented plan is the law. No shortcuts. No workarounds. No 'adapt, improvise and overcome'. No rewarding someone for taking initiative to solve a problem in a creative way. Every single thing you do is done by the book. No one has the authority to order any activity that is not authorized by procedure.

That is the culture required to operate a nuclear power plant. It will take 20 - 25 years for that culture to permeate the navy. Start now if you are serious.

No "MBS Lite" on nuke boats.

 

[Genetk44]

Unfortunately at no time in the past that I can remember, and I admit in advance that my memory may be faulty and that I stand to be corrected, has the government or the armed forces of Canada ever made a concerted effort to explain to the civilian population of the country, the difference between nuclear- powered subs/ships and nuclear-armed subs/ships. So at the end of the day the average person very often conflates the two with the expected reaction.

 

[Lumber]

Unfortunately at no time in the past that I can remember, and I admit in advance that my memory may be faulty and that I stand to be corrected, has the government or the armed forces of Canada ever made a concerted effort to explain to the civilian population of the country, the difference between nuclear- powered subs/ships and nuclear-armed subs/ships. So at the end of the day the average person very often conflates the two with the expected reaction.

I mean, technically you could consider a nuke boat just a really large nuclear torpedo. "Every SSN can be a nuclear torpedo... once!"

 

[Genetk44]

I mean, technically you could consider a nuke boat just a really large nuclear torpedo. "Every SSN can be a nuclear torpedo... once!"

I thought that was pretty funny. On the other hand I suspect it is technically incorrect….I am not a nuclear physicist.

 

[Prairie canuck]

It may be conceivable that Canada and South Korea cooperate in the development and construction of a nuclear power plant for a Sub. Both countries have very advanced nuclear programs and already cooperate in the field on numerous things. Canada already developed the Slowpoke which although is not an active program the research and construction had seen limited success and may cut the R&D time substantially. Reviving that program in conjunction with the South Koreans is an intriguing possibility.

 

[Prairie canuck]

As an edit to my previous post I should mention that a Slowpoke reactor likely doesn't have the output for a conventional nuclear powered drive but could be used to charge batteries in a type of nuclear / AIP combination thus extending the time it is able to stay submerged.
I am by no means an expert and only know what I can glean from reading. Any experts can chime in to provide more knowledge for the rest of us.

 

[childs56]

As an edit to my previous post I should mention that a Slowpoke reactor likely doesn't have the output for a conventional nuclear powered drive but could be used to charge batteries in a type of nuclear / AIP combination thus extending the time it is able to stay submerged.

That is one proposal that was made a couple of years ago.

 

[Halifax Tar]

It may be conceivable that Canada and South Korea cooperate in the development and construction of a nuclear power plant for a Sub. Both countries have very advanced nuclear programs and already cooperate in the field on numerous things. Canada already developed the Slowpoke which although is not an active program the research and construction had seen limited success and may cut the R&D time substantially. Reviving that program in conjunction with the South Koreans is an intriguing possibility.

Back in the 80s when it was the Mulroney Gov looking at Nuc boats its was the USA that was closing doors on us. They didnt want us to have them.

Do we think in 20-25 years SK wont care what the US has to say ?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Back in the 80s when it was the Mulroney Gov looking at Nuc boats its was the USA that was closing doors on us. They didnt want us to have them.

Do we think in 20-25 years SK wont care what the US has to say ?

Geopolitically speaking, that might be the case.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Geopolitically speaking, that might be the case.

It would be interesting to see SK decouple from US influence.

 

[Czech_pivo]

It would be interesting to see SK decouple from US influence.

Until a final decision related to NK occurs, they will continue to be joined at the hip.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Until a final decision related to NK occurs, they will continue to be joined at the hip.

Agreed. I honestly done ever see a point, in my life time anyway, where SK will be independent of US influence and protection; kind of like us.

Which means, I suspect that even if SK wanted to build nuc boats with/for us the Yanks will shut that down most rikki tik.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Agreed. I honestly done ever see a point, in my life time anyway, where SK will be independent of US influence and protection; kind of like us.

Which means, I suspect that even if SK wanted to build nuc boats with/for us the Yanks will shut that down most rikki tik.

Maybe
Things have a habit of coming out of left field from time to time and upend everything. The fall of the Berlin Wall was one of them, 9/11 another, Covid another. Then add in lots of smaller one, 2008 Great Recession, SARs, Yugoslav Civil War, fall of Apartheid, AIDs, Coup in Russia, etc, etc, etc.

The 'fall' of NK is pretty high on my list of 'possible' events over the next 20yrs, same with regime change in Iran, Venezuela, a reengaging of Russia with the West, the UK back in the EU and a localized war between India/Pakistan/China.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Maybe
Things have a habit of coming out of left field from time to time and upend everything. The fall of the Berlin Wall was one of them, 9/11 another, Covid another. Then add in lots of smaller one, 2008 Great Recession, SARs, Yugoslav Civil War, fall of Apartheid, AIDs, Coup in Russia, etc, etc, etc.

The 'fall' of NK is pretty high on my list of 'possible' events over the next 20yrs, same with regime change in Iran, Venezuela, a reengaging of Russia with the West, the UK back in the EU and a localized war between India/Pakistan/China.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Maybe
Things have a habit of coming out of left field from time to time and upend everything. The fall of the Berlin Wall was one of them, 9/11 another, Covid another. Then add in lots of smaller one, 2008 Great Recession, SARs, Yugoslav Civil War, fall of Apartheid, AIDs, Coup in Russia, etc, etc, etc.

The 'fall' of NK is pretty high on my list of 'possible' events over the next 20yrs, same with regime change in Iran, Venezuela, a reengaging of Russia with the West, the UK back in the EU and a localized war between India/Pakistan/China.

The ongoing story... but wishing won't make it so

The Hollowing Out of Kim Jong Un’s North Korea​

Despite North Korea’s presence on the world stage with its nuclear weapons, the Kim dynasty is slowly and irreversibly breaking down.

North Korean leader Kim Jong Un continues to accelerate the country’s nuclear weapons and ballistic missile programs. At the same time, North Korea has been a key supplier of arms to Russia as the war in Ukraine progresses. Both of these actions are critical threats to South Korea, the United States, and Japan. But the outside world is missing an equally important development with immense implications for stability on the Korean Peninsula—the slow and irreversible breakdown of the Kim dynasty.

The Hollowing Out of Kim Jong Un’s North Korea

Despite North Korea’s presence on the world stage with its nuclear weapons, the Kim dynasty is slowly and irreversibly breaking down.

carnegieendowment.org

 

[Czech_pivo]

The ongoing story... but wishing won't make it so

The Hollowing Out of Kim Jong Un’s North Korea​

Despite North Korea’s presence on the world stage with its nuclear weapons, the Kim dynasty is slowly and irreversibly breaking down.

North Korean leader Kim Jong Un continues to accelerate the country’s nuclear weapons and ballistic missile programs. At the same time, North Korea has been a key supplier of arms to Russia as the war in Ukraine progresses. Both of these actions are critical threats to South Korea, the United States, and Japan. But the outside world is missing an equally important development with immense implications for stability on the Korean Peninsula—the slow and irreversible breakdown of the Kim.

IF NK goes under and the SK's are 'allowed' by China to be actively involved in the day to day governing of the failed state, it will make the West Germany absorption of East Germany look like a walk in the park. While there were very large 'gaps' in the standard of living between East and West Germany it will not be anywhere near the order of magnitude that will exist between North and South Korea. The closing of that gap (if its even ever possible from both an economic and psychological point) will be potentially multi-generational.