Replacing the Subs

[Colin Parkinson]

Operating under the ice needs to be defined. I suspect it means travelling a short distance under the ice edge. Our subs will not be transiting under the ice.
The power plant doesn’t determine if you can punch thru the ice. The amount of reserve buoyancy is what determines if it can push up thru the ice. The type and thickness of the ice needs to be factored in as well. As well, the structural strength is a consideration.
I’m sure there are some submariners on this forum whom could better explain this.

We can test the new subs under ice performance, by having a icebreaker follow them in an exercise. There will be no modification to the sail for punching through the ice, so likley if they have to, they will be stuck on the surface till they get back to base for repairs.

 

[Stoker]

We can test the new subs under ice performance, by having a icebreaker follow them in an exercise. There will be no modification to the sail for punching through the ice, so likley if they have to, they will be stuck on the surface till they get back to base for repairs.

I safely say we won't be surfacing through a ice pack. At least not intentionally. At most we'll be operating ice edge around the marginal ice zone and after much study and precautions.

 

[MilEME09]

Bidding instructions are out, due by spring! somehow I don't think it will take till spring, I suspect both groups are ready to go

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/military-submarine-contract-bidders-9.6985543?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar

 

[IKnowNothing]

Bidding instructions are out, due by spring! somehow I don't think it will take till spring, I suspect both groups are ready to go

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/military-submarine-contract-bidders-9.6985543?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar

Unless it's buried in the 15% for financial wherewithal, no points for expedited delivery

"As it makes the decision, the federal government will put a lot of weight on what kind of package each company can offer in terms of sustainment for the fleet of 12 submarines after they’re purchased. Fifty per cent of the company’s score will be in that category.

According to the bid instruction documents, 20 per cent of the decision will be weighted on the platform itself. The company’s financial wherewithal counts for 15 per cent and the remaining 15 per cent involves what sort of economic benefits can be offered in relation to the contract."

 

[MilEME09]

Unless it's buried in the 15% for financial wherewithal, no points for expedited delivery

Can the germans even speed it up? my understanding is they told Canada we had to sign this year if we wanted a boat by 2035, meanwhile korean is still offering 3 by 2032. With what we have heard about fleet maintenance facilities, etc my money is still on the koreans for having a leg up here.

 

[Nvlgzr]

We can test the new subs under ice performance, by having an icebreaker follow them in an exercise. There will be no modification to the sail for punching through the ice, so likley if they have to, they will be stuck on the surface till they get back to base for repairs.

Stoker is correct, “we won’t be surfacing through ice pack.”

Before taking such a risk to the crew and boat; it would be prudent for the manufacturer to create a computer model of ice conditions and observe how the submarine model and ice model react to the other.

 

[OldSolduer]

Bidding instructions are out, due by spring! somehow I don't think it will take till spring, I suspect both groups are ready to go

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/military-submarine-contract-bidders-9.6985543?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar

Its about bloody time.

 

[KevinB]

Stoker is correct, “we won’t be surfacing through ice pack.”

Intentionally…

Before taking such a risk to the crew and boat; it would be prudent for the manufacturer to create a computer model of ice conditions and observe how the submarine model and ice model react to the other.

Garbage in, garbage out. Modeling is a great tool if you know what given parameters are. Unfortunately unless you test systems and components to failure with a decent sample size, you don’t really know what can be done.

I say this simply as a submarine isn’t a homogeneous piece of steel, and subsurface ice formations are not uniform.

Also while as much as I like to beat the SSN drum for Canada due to the under ice aspect - talking to some retired USN Sub folks my wife works with has been a little eye opening as it isn’t like a VA SSN or Ohio SSBN can just punch up anywhere they want under the ice pack. Apparently they need to look for optimal spots to avoid damage - which given the Mass and Power of those boats, doesn’t give me a lot of hope for an AIP boat at this juncture.

 

[Nvlgzr]

It’s about bloody time.

“As it makes the decision, the federal government will put a lot of weight on what kind of package each company can offer in terms of sustainment for the fleet of 12 submarines after they’re purchased. Fifty per cent of the company’s score will be in that category.
According to the bid instruction documents, 20 per cent of the decision will be weighted on the platform itself. The company’s financial wherewithal counts for 15 per cent and the remaining 15 per cent involves what sort of economic benefits can be offered in relation to the contract.”

- I would have expected an investigation of the competitors finances before we arrived at this point. Hopefully, there is some blurbage about delivery schedule.

“Two separate defence sources said the Canadian government is expecting to see responses from both companies by March.”
- So, decision before summer recess?

 

[Stoker]

Once Canada commits to either the Korean or German submarines, the real work begins. Acquiring the boats is only one piece of the puzzle, supporting them is an entirely different scale of effort. We will need new jetty infrastructure, specialized training systems, and expanded facilities to handle maintenance and overhauls. This is a massive, long term undertaking.

We also have to decide whether to invest in our own Deep Submergence Rescue Vehicle (DSRV) capability which would require several commercial type support ships or whether we negotiate a standing agreement with the United States or other allies. And beyond that, do we need a dedicated submarine tender to support deployed ops?

There are many capabilities we’ve taken for granted while operating a very small submarine fleet. Expanding to 12 submarines changes everything. It pushes the RCN into an entirely new level of sustainment, readiness, and global responsibility.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Can the germans even speed it up? my understanding is they told Canada we had to sign this year if we wanted a boat by 2035, meanwhile korean is still offering 3 by 2032. With what we have heard about fleet maintenance facilities, etc my money is still on the koreans for having a leg up here.

My understanding as well.

My point is that based on that excerpt there's no points to the Koreans for that advantage- or if there is it's not a decisive factor

 

[Furniture]

My understanding as well.

My point is that based on that excerpt there's no points to the Koreans for that advantage- or if there is it's not a publicly discussed decisive factor

FTFY.

Releasing anything that openly states there is a heavy bias toward immediate availability would leave the door open for TKMS to say the competition was rigged in favour of the Hanawa bid.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

it isn’t like a VA SSN or Ohio SSBN can just punch up anywhere they want under the ice pack. Apparently they need to look for optimal spots to avoid damage - which given the Mass and Power of those boats, doesn’t give me a lot of hope for an AIP boat at this juncture.

Exactly. And I believe I've alluded to that in the past. Surfacing through the ice (I was going to say "even for" an SSN or a SSBN - but they are the only ones that have ever done it so far) is not something submarines do for fun. It is a complex and difficult exercise in patience, precision and precaution. It has been used in the past to demonstrate to the "other side" that you could operate under the ice (that was the whole point) with your nuclear boats and thus as a political message. Since, US nuclear boats (SSN's - SSBN's rarely, if ever need to get themselves in the Arctic or Antarctic in order to carry out their deterrence mission) needing to operate under the ice, but only those having to do so, have had to carry it out once in training to demonstrate that they can carry out the full spectrum of ice ops before operational deployment. Otherwise, it is rarely if ever done anymore. (And, BTW, while doing so in a safe fashion does not damage the submarine per se, it is still not very good for the anechoic coverings.)

This level of time and preparation that can still result in not finding the adequate condition to surface through the ice is the reason non-nuclear boats don't go under the ice (except, perhaps a little bit near the edge of the ice). Whether they are AIP or classic diesel, they carry a limited amount of breathable air and a set amount of electrical energy to expend. If they find themselves too far under the ice and unable to surface, they can run out of either - or both - before being able to surface and recharge/resupply. Nuclear boats don't have to do this: they have unlimited energy, and that also means they can both produce oxygen and scrub CO2 out of the air.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Once Canada commits to either the Korean or German submarines, the real work begins. Acquiring the boats is only one piece of the puzzle, supporting them is an entirely different scale of effort. We will need new jetty infrastructure, specialized training systems, and expanded facilities to handle maintenance and overhauls. This is a massive, long term undertaking.

We also have to decide whether to invest in our own Deep Submergence Rescue Vehicle (DSRV) capability which would require several commercial type support ships or whether we negotiate a standing agreement with the United States or other allies. And beyond that, do we need a dedicated submarine tender to support deployed ops?

There are many capabilities we’ve taken for granted while operating a very small submarine fleet. Expanding to 12 submarines changes everything. It pushes the RCN into an entirely new level of sustainment, readiness, and global responsibility.

Besides all of that, if somebody had suggested 4 or maybe even 3 years ago that Canada might consider building the 2nd or 3rd largest submarine fleet in NATO, with a SLCM capability, that person would have been laughed at. Now it’s happening.

To make this happen, speed and near perfect execution are key.